What are the best classes & specs for each different role?

[Theloras]

And I don't feel I'm being ignored either, but you guys are extremely proficient at derailing any kind of coherent discussion. Thought I would keep an eye on it. ;>

If you feel that we are derailing topics, then imagine how we feel when people come into our threads with falsehoods and/or blatant lies about what a Paladin can and cannot do...

Are we confrontational?

Yes, at times we can be but given the sheer amount of abuse that we have taken from countless trolls both here and on Peenix (including some players there posting RL pictures of me along with sending harassing messages to my wife over Facebook), I'm sure you can understand where we come from.

At the end of the day, we answer everyone's theories against Paladins being anything other than Flash of Light spambots with data, screenshots/videos and our over 10+ years of experience playing the class/specs.

- edit -

Have we been wrong at times?

Yes, on rare occasions we have made mistakes but I am the first to admit areas in which I have erred.

[Aethelwulf]

Theloras, keep the victim complex to when you are actually being victimized. A stringent disagreement does not constitute victimization, and I'm rather certain none of us are about to PM your wife on Facebook. And when it comes to "being the first to admit areas in which you have erred" I can safely say that this thread is living proof to the contrary. Lets not put ourselves on a pedestal here.

With regards to SoR, I believe that even accounting for all possible multipliers etc. you are still short several hundred spell damage to deliver that sort of damage on hit with the blizzard coefficient.

[Theloras]

Theloras, keep the victim complex to when you are actually being victimized. A stringent disagreement does not constitute victimization, and I'm rather certain none of us are about to PM your wife on Facebook. And when it comes to "being the first to admit areas in which you have erred" I can safely say that this thread is living proof to the contrary. Lets not put ourselves on a pedestal here.

With regards to SoR, I believe that even accounting for all possible multipliers etc. you are still short several hundred spell damage to deliver that sort of damage on hit with the blizzard coefficient.

I didn't say you or anyone else in this particular thread were one of the people who went after my wife - I was merely using that as an example of what I and other Paladins have had to deal with over these past few years.

Most of those same players now play on Nostalrius however and have in fact attempted to derail other threads in which I have participated in.

Likewise, don't put yourself on a pedestal either - at least I have screenshots/videos and firsthand experience to backup what I type here.

Paladins were the most bugged class by leaps and bounds compared to any other class on Peenix.

It was because of all of these bugs and straight up abilities not working properly which led me to theory craft the shit out of everything, including the +Fire/Nature dmg items. If things actually worked properly on Peenix, then none of this would have been necessary.

I am the number one reason shit got looked at by the Devs there when it came to Paladin bugs as I personally wrote up dozens of Paladin bug reports.

[Vices]

Have you ever raided?
Hint: there are fights that require tankswaps that paladins literally can't do because they can't taunt.

It's also pretty much impossible for them to get uncrushable

because we can reach easy def cap that make Paladins uncrushable and there is even topic with list of gear for that viewtopic.php?f=43&t=13492

which a 60 warr basically gets by putting on a shield and pressing shieldblock
but also Paladins basically gets by putting on a shield and pressing holyshield .

Do you know the difference between uncrushable and uncrittable? Because it seems you don't. Holyshield is only 30%: are you saying you have 72.4% avoidance before holy shield?
Hint: Redoubt can't help you if your def capped.


I'm sorry, I don't know why I started this conversation with a troll that obviously has never MT'd a 40 man. Goodbye.

Have you ever raided?

best question i got so far

https://forum.nostalrius.org/viewtopic. ... 20#p147785

Hint: there are fights that require tankswaps that paladins literally can't do because they can't taunt.

wowwiki.com = all those fights have abilities/spells/strategy to be done without taunts or at least all of these are meant to use 1 paladin tank in group because every single raid consist with 4 tanks.

please name me specific fight that i can't tank because of "require tankswaps" before you talk more bullshits.

Do you know the difference between uncrushable and uncrittable? Because it seems you don't. Holyshield is only 30%: are you saying you have 72.4% avoidance before holy shield?


And which warrior can reach uncrushable until Naxx? . because you also have clearly no idea what uncrushable mean .

Uncrushable is impossible to get because for that you need 100+ Avoidance .

Because you messing frogs and cabbages let me enlight you:

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Damage_mitigation

Mitigation is the reduction of attack effectiveness. Types of melee and magical spell mitigation are absorb, armor, block, defense, resilience and resistance.

Not to be confused with avoidance, which includes such stats as dodge, miss and parry.

The crucial difference between the two being that an attack that is mitigated still does damage to the player, however an avoided attack deals no damage.

A tank is considered uncrushable when they are immune to crushing blows delivered by raid bosses. In order to do this, the attacking mob's attack table must be filled completely with other attack results that take precedence over Crushing Blows. Against an opponent 3 levels higher than the tank — Boss mobs are treated as being 3 levels higher than their targets — all combined avoidance must add up to 102.4%.

Tell me which warrior can reach dodge,parry,miss 102.4% ?!?!. especially in this patch.

Thus we got from talents and offset items lot more avoidance than block value compare to warriors sets that focus on block value which we already have extra 30% from talents.

I'm sorry, I don't know why I started this conversation with a troll that obviously has never MT'd a 40 man.

https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hp ... 8017_o.jpg

obviously the troll here is you talking bullshits about Paladin Tanks.

I will reply to a few different things said so far in this thread in the post below, I just chose to quote this particular post as I felt it had a few points that needed addressing. TLDR can be found in the last paragraph.

There are a lot of desinformation in this post regarding the attack table and crushing blows in general. The attack table used in vanilla is a single roll attack table, meaning that a missed attack can not possibly have been a crit and such. This is important when we talk about crushing blows (a crushing blow is a melee swing dealing 150% of normal damage), because in order for us to push off crushing blows from the bosses attack table, we need to make sure every single event remaining on the attack table has a higher precedence than a crushing blow. Block, parry, miss and dodge all have higher precedence than crushing blow on the attack table. In order to do this, you make sure your total avoidance (meaning the bosses chance to miss you, your chance to dodge, your chance to parry) and your block chance sum up to 102.4.
Shield block gives a warrior 75% increased chance to block for 2 attacks (talented) over a 5 second duration. What this means is that you have 75% increased block chance with 100% uptime (barring human error) as long as bosses only attack once every 2.5 seconds, which most do (exceptions exist of course, such as enraged chromaggus). This in turn means that block (which has higher precedence than a crushing blow) fills a large portion of the boss' attack table. A direct consequence of this is that warriors do not need much dodge/parry in order to push off crushing blows, assuming they have 1/3 points in improved shield block and that they use it on cooldown.
Now, onwards to paladins. Holy Shield, granting 30% block (although not limited to x number of attacks) for 10 seconds makes it much harder for a paladin to push crushing blows off the attack table. One option to push off crushings as a paladin would indeed be to /sit to proc Redoubt. This is fraught with peril as critical strikes do 200% of normal damage compared to the 150% damage a crushing blow does rendering the entire exercise moot. Moreover, /sit does not actually guarantee a crit if you are defcapped so it is only viable if you have less than +140 defense from gear & talents. If it is even possible it would require insane gear which is not currently available on Nostalrius. For bosses with a default (2.5s) attack speed, paladins will take more damage overall than a warrior simply due to not being able to push off crushing blows. Not only do they take more damage, there will also be a greater variance in incoming damage due to the fact that the paladin will occasionally take a melee hit dealing 150% of normal damage.

Another big issue (although I must confess to never having played a paladin) is mana. It has been stated multiple times in this thread already that dark runes + major mana potions is an option for sustainability, but this in itself is a problem. By using Major Mana Potions you are locking away your potion cooldown on fights, denying the usage of the strongest tank potion in the game, Greater Stoneshield Potion. Due to the way the armor formula works (damage reduction depends on attackers level, more info on wowwiki), this adds up to quite a bit of an increase in physical damage taken, especially versus level 63 raid bosses. A poorly timed dark rune / demonic rune could lead to a big spike in damage taken, but it should in most cases not be fatal so it is not a huge deal.

Taking the case for the warrior even further one might compare defensive cooldowns. Paladins have two, Lay on Hands which heals you full and drains most of your mana. This is obviously not ideal and should only be used as a last resort. Even so, it is a nice panic button and can certainly be useful. Secondly, we have Divine Shield. Divine Shield makes you immune to all damage for 10s, which is obviously a very nice defensive boost. However, it comes with a huge drawback, namely, it makes you lose aggro for its duration, severely diminishing it's usefulness in a tanking context as you would sacrifice dps or healers to survive which most likely won't be worth it.
Warriors on the other hand 2 (3 if you count LGG) major defensive cooldowns. Last stand, increasing the warriors health by 30% is a great panic heal and saved me many times while tanking on previous projects. Shield wall reduces all damage taken by 75%, again very useful to pop when you are about to take heavy damage. Lifegiving gem has a similar effect to last stand, increasing maximum health by 15% and healing for 15% of maximum health. None of these cooldowns come with significant drawbacks which makes them superior to the paladin offerings in almost every situation.

On threat I will not elaborate too much as I feel not enough information exists on the potential threat a paladin can dish out. This is not difficult to calculate, but one does need to spend time researching threat values for every ability which is something I have neither the time nor the inclination to do. I will however leave a link to a spreadsheet in which a friend of mine (Cheers Sidesprang) calculated the potential TPS a warrior can dish out on nostalrius (using alcor's sunrazor) in addition to the maximum DPS values this allows. Spreadsheet link.
I will however note that the argument that warriors are resource starved when tanking rarely holds true. Any warrior maintanking a boss will always be capped on rage. They do suffer a bit when they are not taking damage from bosses but with proper ability usage this can be somewhat mitigated. Furthermore, warrior tanks definately do scale with gear assuming you spec Impale and invest in hit and crit on gear pieces.

In conclusion, I am not saying paladins can not tank, I am just saying that warriors (from personal experience) do a damn good job at it and they have been known for a long time to be the go to tanking class. As such, I would advise anyone interested in rolling a tank character to roll a warrior. Unconventional tanks such as druids and paladins can definately work in certain situations but they require a specific investment in gear, consumables and possibly adjustments to the raid setup which in most cases is not worth doing due to warriors being strong overall tanks.

[Theloras]

+1 to Vices for a very well articulated and laid out post

Other than mentioning Seal/Judgement of Wisdom again for mana regeneration on long boss fights, I will let Duki reply to you and Ana regarding a Prot Paladin's rotation and overall threat generation.

[Aethelwulf]

Theloras, I have made a point before of your obnoxious habit of quoting large posts in their entirety despite being located directly above yours. Please stop making us scroll past useless quotes. Also, as for Seal/Judgement of Wisdom, you are trading damage and threat for mana (minus the mana you expend switching seals and/or judgements) when you do this and SoR is likely the cheapest source of threat a Paladin can obtain. Cysthen never managed to maintain good threat levels.

As for your rejoinder that I not place myself on a pedestal, I have never insisted that I was correct by the force of my reputation (which ought to be nonexistent, I've only been around for a few weeks), my sycophants, or any such nonsense. There is only one reason I would expect people to agree with me, and that is because of cold, hard logic.

Vices, with regards to Demonic Runes, it is also worth noting that there is an added danger in that you can crit yourself with the Rune. Defense doesn't mitigate player crits.

[Theloras]

Theloras, I have made a point before of your obnoxious habit of quoting large posts in their entirety despite being located directly above yours. Please stop making us scroll past useless quotes. Also, as for Seal/Judgement of Wisdom, you are trading damage and threat for mana when you do this and SoR is likely the cheapest source of threat a Paladin can obtain. Cysthen never managed to maintain good threat levels.

As for your rejoinder that I not place myself on a pedestal, I have never insisted that I was correct by the force of my reputation (which ought to be nonexistent, I've only been around for a few weeks), my sycophants, or any such nonsense. There is only one reason I would expect people to agree with me, and that is because of cold, hard logic.

Vices, with regards to Demonic Runes, it is also worth noting that there is an added danger in that you can crit yourself with the Rune.

^^^There, happy now?^^^

I won't bother replying on the MT issue as I never MTed with my Paladin on Peenix - I will let Duki reply - I merely brought up Seal of Wisdom because Cysthen used it from time to time if he ever got low on mana.

However, I'm pretty sure that Duki doesn't Judge Righteousness whereas Cysthen was - therefore Cysthen's mana consumption would be much higher than Duki's due to him Judging then recasting his Seal every 8 seconds compared to Duki only needing to recast it every 30.

Likewise, Cysthen never put up Judgement of the Crusader himself, he had either myself or his original Retribution Paladin put that up - he would always put up Judgement of Wisdom which not only benefitted him but all the other casters in the raid as well.

[smilkovpetko]

Here, let me try again:

could someone do the actual theorycrafting behind paladin single target TPS capabilities (including mana management and such)?

Assuming i start with 4k or 4.5k Mana with all consumes during raid (with only 7 extra intellect from weapon) (everything else i tank gear) (including divine intellect) here it is how it goes :

We Talk about 1 Target/Boss TPS .

Begin with Seal of Crusade for it's Judgement

Seal of the Crusader
160 mana
(i don't care about it's attack power since i wont use the seal but ill use for judge)
Unleashing this Seal's energy will judge an enemy for 10 sec, increasing Holy damage taken by up to 140. Your melee strikes will refresh the spell's duration. Only one Judgement per Paladin can be active at any one time.

Judgement
6% of base mana. (assuming this would be 200-250) (maybe lesser)

We Exclude Improved Seal of Righteousness according to my build.

Seal of Righteousness
200 mana

Fills the Paladin with holy spirit for 30 sec, granting each melee attack an additional 20.5287356322 to 71.44 Holy damage. Slower weapons cause more Holy damage per swing. Only one Seal can be active on the Paladin at any one time.

Unleashing this Seal's energy will cause 162 to 179 Holy damage to an enemy.

(assuming that i use 1.9 weapon speed or 1.8) the damage would be something around 40-50 (more/less)

Seal of Crusade + Judgement of Crusade + Seal of Righteousness = 610 Mana

Each 30 seconds i re Seal SoR = 810 Mana over 1 minute + 400 = 1210 Mana over 2 minutes + 400 = 1610 Mana over 3 minutes

Consecration
565 mana
Consecrates the land beneath Paladin, doing 384 Holy damage over 8 sec to enemies who enter the area.

(the damage each tick gets increased by judgement of crusade)
(the damage is increased by one-handed weapon specialization by 10%)

Assuming that we can't yet confirm during fight how much times we might need this since i rarely use it during boss fight (maybe once or max twice if i want crazy threats fast to build). (i never using it for undead)

Exorcism
345 mana

Causes 505 to 564 Holy damage to an Undead or Demon target.

(the damage get increased by judgement of crusade by 140 and from one handed weapon specialization by 10%)

Assuming that we can't yet confirm during fight how much times we might need this since i rarely use it during boss fight (unless undead bosses for taunting or build up enormous threats to drink my coffee).

Holy Shield
240 mana

Increases chance to block by 30% for 10 sec, and deals 130 Holy damage for each attack blocked while active. Damage caused by Holy Shield causes 20% additional threat. Each block expends a charge. 4 charges.

(this is most used during fight when bosses are high melee dmg).
(it's threat is 20% + the 130 multiplied holy by Righteous Fury)

Buffs

Greater Blessing of Sanctuary
(we don't care about his mana)

Gives all members of the raid or group that share the same class with the target the Greater Blessing of Sanctuary, reducing damage dealt from all sources by up to 24 for 900 sec. In addition, when the target blocks a melee attack the attacker will take 35 Holy damage. Players may only have one Blessing on them per Paladin at any one time.

Righteous Fury
(we don't care about his mana)

Increases the threat generated by your Holy attacks by 60%. Lasts 1800 sec.
(This get increased from improved righteous fury by 50%) so we get 90% Threat generated additional by Holy

Retribution Aura
Causes 20 Holy damage to any creature that strikes a party member within 30 yards. Players may only have one Aura on them per Paladin at any one time.

HEALING/SPELL POWER COEFFICIENTS

10% Seal of Righteousness with 1 handed weapon
12.5% Seal of Righteousness with 2 handed weapon
50% Judgement of Righteousness
20% Seal of Command
29% Seal of Command (only with +holy damage bonuses)
43% Judgement of Command
33% Consecration (33% from Attack Power too)
43% Holy Shock
43% Hammer of Wrath
43% Exorcism
19% Holy Wrath
00% Blessing of Sanctuary ;;
20% Holy Shield
00% Retribution Aura ;;
71% Holy Light
43% Flash of Light
100% Eye for an Eye

Note that i exclude Hammer of Wrath and Holy Wraith because these 2 are not important.

Melee Swings :

Assuming we use 100 Spell Damage (pre bwl and pre mc) gear.
(assuming we use 1.8 weapon speed)

Joc+sor = 140+40(calculated the minimum instead 50 which is most likely to get) 180 + 10 from spell coefficient = 190 + 10% from one-handed weapon specialization = 209 Holy per swing

(assuming that our melee weapon hits for 150 + 10% from one-handed) = 165

165 TPS (from white hits) + (209 from holy hits) + (188 from Righteous Fury) = 562 TPS per Swing

(we assume that from 180 seconds we can have 90 swings or something more)

90 x 562 = 50580 Threats for 1610 Mana over 3 Minutes Fight.

Retribution Aura

(we may not know yet how much this will be compatibility due it's variety from fast hits by boss)

(assuming boss hits each 2 seconds)

20 (from holy dmg) + 18 (from righteous fury) = 38 TPS x 90 = 3420 Threats over 3 Minutes
Note that this can't be valid due Block/Parry/Dodge/Miss

Blessing of Sanctuary

(assuming we use Holy Shields on cd) we have 35% more/less block rating
(assuming boss hits each 2 seconds we have 90 hits over 180 seconds)

90 divide to 35% = 31 Hits Blocked

31 x 35 = 1085 by Holy + 976 by Righteous Fury = 2061 Threats over 3 Minutes

Holy Shield
(assuming we use it on cd)

240 x 18 = 4320 Mana

(we will exclude the extra 20% Threat because i don't know in which way they scale as extra 20%)

135 by Holy + 121 by Righteous Fury = 256TPS + (unknown extra 20%).

Using Same Theory by Blessing of Sanctuary :

(assuming we use Holy Shields on cd) we have 35% more/less block rating
(assuming boss hits each 2 seconds we have 90 hits over 180 seconds)

90 divide to 35% = 31 Hits Blocked

31x 256 = 7936 Threats over 3 Minutes

(This was all calculated with assumptions of 100 Spell Damage only By Return Damage + Melee Swings).

60577 Threats over 3 Minutes + Unknown extra 20% by Holy Shield + 3420 By Variety of Retribution Aura.
5930 Mana used over 3 Minutes with exclusion of Benediction that reduce this by 15%
(with working Benediction Talent = 5823 Mana used)

(assuming i am full with consumes) 4.5 k Mana + Demonic Rune (calculating very minimum) 900 Mana + Major Mana Potion (calculating very minimum) 1350 Mana

4500 + 900 + 1350 = 6750 Mana over 3 Minutes by own mana and Pots/demonic runes

6750 - 5823 - 927 mana left for extra Consecration or Exorcism or Whatever.

Within 3 Minutes Fight i do 60577 Threats and 927 Mana left inside me.

927 Mana = 1 Consecration 384 Holy Dmg + 10% one-handed Weapon Spec + 140 Judgement of Crusade = 562 Holy + 505 Righteous Fury = 1067 Threats
(we exclude attack power and spell power coefficient which can increase this damage 33% by SP + 33% by AP)

61644 Threats over 3 Minutes Fight + (unknown 20% extra by Holy Shield) + 3420 By Variety of Retribution Aura.

Please Take into Account the exclusions of :


(The Calculations are done with close assumptions which goes on very minimum calculating and can't be only increased )
(The Calculations are done with Pre Raid Gear) (assuming that we can get lot AP and Max 150/160 SP on current Very BiS Patch)
(The Calculations are done without MP5 we gain by Blessing of Wisdom or any other Buffs/Consumes/Food).
(Any MP5 we get from Buffs goes toward Consecration).


(now i would like to see any warrior doing 61644 Threats over 3 minutes fight with Pre Raid Gear)

You got Theory on return dmg+melee swing based on surviving.
On Fights that are non undead and does not require melee block too much switch all Holy Shields into Consecrations.
On Fights that are undead and does not require melee block too much switch all Holy Shields into Exorcism.

[Aethelwulf]

Theloras,

I am, actually. Thanks.

And if Cysthen is using Judgement of Righteousness and having other Paladins apply judgements for him, then he might as well have other Paladins apply Judgement of Wisdom for him as well to conserve more of his own mana. He clearly needs to spare as much of it as he can.

[Theloras]

^^^The Duki has spoken^^^