What are the best classes & specs for each different role?

[sidesprang]

Not gonna bother quoting you since so big but. I don't understand why you link that single target threat discussion, what was shown there was that paladins does really bad single target threat. Duki failed to come up with anything that proved paladins could do good single target threat over a decent amount of time. His calculations was 342 TPS, which is HALF what a proper warrior can do on single target. He can feel free to come up with new proper calculations if he wants to be I've yet to see anything that indicates a paladin can do decent single target threat over time.

Also regarding AQ gear you are wrong if you think a protection warrior wants to keep T2, then they just don't know how to gear. Pre Naxx Bis you will keep 2-3 T2 and rest will be T2.5 and off pieces. However I don't really think that matters gearing tanks is usually not a problem.

[Theloras]

Not gonna bother quoting you since so big but. I don't understand why you link that single target threat discussion, what was shown there was that paladins does really bad single target threat. Duki failed to come up with anything that proved paladins could do good single target threat over a decent amount of time. His calculations was 342 TPS, which is HALF what a proper warrior can do on single target. He can feel free to come up with new proper calculations if he wants to be I've yet to see anything that indicates a paladin can do decent single target threat over time.

Also regarding AQ gear you are wrong if you think a protection warrior wants to keep T2, then they just don't know how to gear. Pre Naxx Bis you will keep 2-3 T2 and rest will be T2.5 and off pieces. However I don't really think that matters gearing tanks is usually not a problem.

I will leave it up to him seeing as he has much more experience Main Tanking as a Prot Paladin but I wanted to point out that his calculation was based on pre-raid gear and had not factored Consecration or Judgement of Righteousness into the equation (or white dmg either IIRC).

Likewise, I merely pointed out that the thread as a whole got derailed at that point and I don't believe he responded to your last post in regard to single target threat.

As far as T2, it was my experience on Peenix that the Warriors either already had the items or wanted to keep their set bonuses (PTA, The Legion and Chainpull) - I never had any argument whenever I bid DKP on the items in question - but I do agree with you that it isn't that big of a deal either way as gearing up tanks isn't usually a problem at that stage of the game.

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As far as being the OT, would you agree that a Paladin would generate much more threat than a Warrior seeing as his rage generation and therefore threat would be much less as a result?

That is what Undertanker had said on multiple occasions in this thread and others since the Paladin can generate sizeable threat with Seal/Judgement of Righteousness and Consecration without the need of reflective dmg/threat from Blessing of Sanctuary and Holy Shield.

[Armilus]

Not gonna bother quoting you since so big but. I don't understand why you link that single target threat discussion, what was shown there was that paladins does really bad single target threat. Duki failed to come up with anything that proved paladins could do good single target threat over a decent amount of time. His calculations was 342 TPS, which is HALF what a proper warrior can do on single target. He can feel free to come up with new proper calculations if he wants to be I've yet to see anything that indicates a paladin can do decent single target threat over time.

Also regarding AQ gear you are wrong if you think a protection warrior wants to keep T2, then they just don't know how to gear. Pre Naxx Bis you will keep 2-3 T2 and rest will be T2.5 and off pieces. However I don't really think that matters gearing tanks is usually not a problem.

I will leave it up to him seeing as he has much more experience Main Tanking as a Prot Paladin but I wanted to point out that his calculation was based on pre-raid gear and had not factored Consecration or Judgement of Righteousness into the equation (or white dmg either IIRC).

Likewise, I merely pointed out that the thread as a whole got derailed at that point and I don't believe he responded to your last post in regard to single target threat.

As far as T2, it was my experience on Peenix that the Warriors either already had the items or wanted to keep their set bonuses (PTA, The Legion and Chainpull) - I never had any argument whenever I bid DKP on the items in question - but I do agree with you that it isn't that big of a deal either way as gearing up tanks isn't usually a problem at that stage of the game.

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As far as being the OT, would you agree that a Paladin would generate much more threat than a Warrior seeing as his rage generation and therefore threat would be much less as a result?

That is what Undertanker had said on multiple occasions in this thread and others since the Paladin can generate sizeable threat with Seal/Judgement of Righteousness and Consecration without the need of reflective dmg/threat from Blessing of Sanctuary and Holy Shield.

On any fight where there is an OT that needs to generate threat, the boss always switches back and forth between the two tanks. The OT has agro and thus a ton of rage for half the fight so no, a paladin would not generate much more threat than a warrior. The paladin will generate a bit more while the boss is not attacking them and much less than a warrior when the boss is attacking them.

[sidesprang]

Ye without doing any math I'm pretty sure a Paladin would out threat a Warrior without any of them having aggro or taking any damage. Never really done any number crunching or theory-crafting on that tho as I don't really see it as very valuable.

[Armilus]

In the hypothetical situation where you have an OT that needs to generate as much threat as possible but will never be attacked, then yes a paladin will generate more threat than a prot warrior; however, a rogue or DPS warrior would generate FAR more threat.

[Theloras]

In the hypothetical situation where you have an OT that needs to generate as much threat as possible but will never be attacked, then yes a paladin will generate more threat than a prot warrior; however, a rogue or DPS warrior would generate FAR more threat.

I would respectfully disagree with that assertion - the Paladin will have Righteous Fury up - as can be seen in Cysthen's videos where he is off tanking single target bosses and generating more than enough threat as the OT to cover any of the DPSers threat:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPI89H5Va6A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xCLxq3DHt4

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Seeing as I am not a Main or Off tanking expert, I can only provide assumptions on my part in this particular situation - Paladin AoE tanking with Force Reactive Disk I know like the back of my hand however

[sidesprang]

First video is broodlord, hardly a fight where melee DPS gets to go all out, and also a fight where players restrain themselves if KTM does not allow it, hardly shows anything.

Second video I kinda just skipped through fast but I did not see any single encounter that proved this tho.

However I had similar thought as Armilus, but I did not voice them as I'm not really sure how it would be. I think that maybe at current stage on Nost a Pala offtank would be able to out threat the DPS as the DPS numbers are not that high yet. However I'm fairly sure with bis BWL / ZG that wont be the case anymore, and in AQ I really can't ever see it being the case. However this is mostly just me speculating without any number crunching again. Mostly because again I don't find it very valuable.

[Armilus]

In the hypothetical situation where you have an OT that needs to generate as much threat as possible but will never be attacked, then yes a paladin will generate more threat than a prot warrior; however, a rogue or DPS warrior would generate FAR more threat.

I would respectfully disagree with that assertion

You linked a video showing a prot paladin on Vael that starts with vael at 7% HP and 16 players dead. It's obvious that the prot paladin only got agro after half the DPS died.

The broodlord fight is also a joke. It starts with the boss almost dead and no secondary tank on KTM. If the paladin hadn't gotten VERY lucky and dodged all the knockbacks for the remainder of the fight, the raid would have wiped. Not to mention this is a fight were the DPS hold back a LOT.

You can disagree with anything, that is your right but just because you disagree with something it does not mean that you are right. I can disagree with the law of gravity if I want but I'm not going to start floating around.

Show me a prot paladin that can do 200dps of holy damage on a single target and I'll agree that they can do more single target threat than a rogue or DPS warrior.

Note: Assuming that improved righteous fury stacks the same as threat increasing talents for warriors, then 1 holy damage from a prot paladin is equivalent to 2.63 damage from a rogue or warrior (both have 80% threat reduction by default). That means a prot paladin has to do about 200dps of holy damage just to keep up to the over 500dps that rogues and warriors are currently doing on nost.

Oh and btw, a prot paladin will do about 90dps with SoR, Judging SoR and consecrate with no spell damage. Their coefficients are not good enough to make up the other 110dps in tanking gear.

This is not my feeling, this is not my guess, this is not what I wish were true. I don't even care what the answer is. These are facts taken from empirical data. You can disagree with it if you want, just as you can disagree that gravity exists or the earth rotates around the sun.

[Theloras]

First video is broodlord, hardly a fight where melee DPS gets to go all out, and also a fight where players restrain themselves if KTM does not allow it, hardly shows anything.

Second video I kinda just skipped through fast but I did not see any single encounter that proved this tho.

However I had similar thought as Armilus, but I did not voice them as I'm not really sure how it would be. I think that maybe at current stage on Nost a Pala offtank would be able to out threat the DPS as the DPS numbers are not that high yet. However I'm fairly sure with bis BWL / ZG that wont be the case anymore, and in AQ I really can't ever see it being the case. However this is mostly just me speculating without any number crunching again. Mostly because again I don't find it very valuable.

That's totally fine and I respect that - again full disclosure here - since Main or Off Tanking was never my bag, I'm only going on assumptions and my own theory crafting here.

For arguments sake, let's imagine a very hard hitting, taunt-immune boss who also cleaves - something like Nefarian for example - given the fact that he also has oodles and oodles of adds as well during phase 1 and 3 is an added bonus.

Let's use this as a possible example of a Paladin Off Tank as had you mentioned in an earlier post:

"I'll link you another video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67POH7fb0rY. Just focus on nefarian phase 2, I start the phase at 55k threat that i gained from phase 1. I hit my first attack on him at 2:18 in the video, then I tank him untill 3:53 in the video (he uses paladin class call so can't do TPS calcuations after that point). But on those 1m35second I get to 120k threat, that means I've done 65k threat in around half the time you do."

So during phase 1, you would similarly tank one add spawn alcove and the Paladin would tank the other - therefore the Paladin tank would also have ~55k threat once Nefarian landed (I would argue that it would be higher due to it being AoE threat but let's settle on the 55k mark).

You would move to the Nefarian landing spot and grab him just as in the video and the Paladin would mop up the rest of the add spawns as Nefarian lands and does his breath. As the melee DPS moves into place, the Paladin OT would move with them and continue his DPS rotation of Seal/Judgement of Righteousness and Consecration (provided boss hit boxes are fixed here on Nostalrius).

Again since Nefarian is taunt immune and very hard hitting with a cleave, it doesn't make any sense to have an Off Tank out front of him taking similar damage as you would be while Main Tanking him. Likewise, a Warrior Off Tank basically doing nothing but auto-attack from behind with the rest of the melee DPS will generate little to no rage and therefore little to no threat.

This is where the Paladin OT comes in as a potential wipe prevention because I am sure that you would agree that even the best of guilds can and do wipe by having the MT die due to the healers being overwhelmed. This is even more apparent with newer guilds as they progress and learn encounters.

On Nefarian in particular, since his random class call for Paladins makes him completely immune to all melee damage, you as the Main Tank and the Warrior Off Tanks (even if you had one) would not generate any threat whatsoever. The Paladin OT would continue to generate a great deal of threat with both Consecration and Judgement of Righteousness. To that end, since the class call is completely random, the Paladin call can and does happen quite often and can happen multiple times in a row leading to much swearing and sighing over Teamspeak/Vent/Mumble in the process.

Moving further as the fight progresses, once the adds spawn again at 20%, this Paladin can then break off from the boss and single handedly pickup all of these adds and AoE them down with Holy Wrath, Consecration, Stratholme Holy Water and if he has it, Force Reactive Disk. Once all of the adds are down, he would return to his position with the rest of the melee and continue to build up threat as the ultimate tanking wipe prevention:

!!!OH SHIT THE MAIN TANK DIED, PROT PALADIN XYZ QUICKLY GRAB HIM AND MOVE HIM BACK INTO POSITION!!!

Thoughts?

[Theloras]

In the hypothetical situation where you have an OT that needs to generate as much threat as possible but will never be attacked, then yes a paladin will generate more threat than a prot warrior; however, a rogue or DPS warrior would generate FAR more threat.

I would respectfully disagree with that assertion

You linked a video showing a prot paladin on Vael that starts with vael at 7% HP and 16 players dead. It's obvious that the prot paladin only got agro after half the DPS died.

The broodlord fight is also a joke. It starts with the boss almost dead and no secondary tank on KTM. If the paladin hadn't gotten VERY lucky and dodged all the knockbacks for the remainder of the fight, the raid would have wiped. Not to mention this is a fight were the DPS hold back a LOT.

You can disagree with anything, that is your right but just because you disagree with something it does not mean that you are right. I can disagree with the law of gravity if I want but I'm not going to start floating around.

Show me a prot paladin that can do 200dps of holy damage on a single target and I'll agree that they can do more single target threat than a rogue or DPS warrior.

Note: Assuming that improved righteous fury stacks the same as threat increasing talents for warriors, then 1 holy damage from a prot paladin is equivalent to 2.63 damage from a rogue or warrior (both have 80% threat reduction by default). That means a prot paladin has to do about 200dps of holy damage just to keep up to the over 500dps that rogues and warriors are currently doing on nost.

Oh and btw, a prot paladin will do about 90dps with SoR, Judging SoR and consecrate with no spell damage. Their coefficients are not good enough to make up the other 110dps in tanking gear.

This is not my feeling, this is not my guess, this is not what I wish were true. I don't even care what the answer is. These are facts taken from empirical data. You can disagree with it if you want, just as you can disagree that gravity exists or the earth rotates around the sun.

Again, full disclosure here - Main/Off Tanking in 40man raids isn't my bag - I'm only going on assumptions and theory crafting.

But Consecration is in fact scaling with Attack Power here on Nostalrius, not Spell Power. When I tank 5/10 mans, I don't even bother using Seal/Judgement of Righteousness. I use Seal of the Crusader to boost my AP by 351 and spam rank 1 Consecration as I end up being the top DPS while using STR/AP and tanking gear and zero spell power

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To quote the great Samuel L. Jackson as Jules Winnfield in Pulp Fiction, "I ain't threatening you, aight?"