1% dodge vs 100 hp

[Badtank]

How you can post something that long or something as informative to new players as your sticky and still not understand why flat health is always better then dodge in 100% of all situations is beyond me. Effective Health is always king. RNG based tanking is always bad, You are flat out wrong. There is no counter argument. Dodge/Parry are not good stats and are only worthwhile to take when the base item itself makes it so or there is no good alternative. In all things.

[Armilus]

How you can post something that long or something as informative to new players as your sticky and still not understand why flat health is always better then dodge in 100% of all situations is beyond me.

Interesting... ok, let's find out why flat health is always better than dodge in 100% of all situations.

Effective Health is always king.

Ya, you already said that, let's get to the part where you prove me wrong.

RNG based tanking is always bad, You are flat out wrong.

Ohhhhh, you think I'm wrong, it's a good thing you reiterated that, I forgot what this was about.

There is no counter argument.

Oh ok, well let me keep reading here and once I get to your argument I won't bother replying.

Dodge/Parry are not good stats and are only worthwhile to take when the base item itself makes it so or there is no good alternative. In all things.

Uh huh, that is once again paraphrasing what you already said. Let me keep reading here and see why you think you are correct... oh wait, that's it. Uhmmm, ok.

Well... huh. You wrote one sentence making a claim, then you paraphrased that claim 4 different ways and thought that was an argument? Sorry but at this point I just think you're an idiot.

[Plask]

How you can post something that long or something as informative to new players as your sticky and still not understand why flat health is always better then dodge in 100% of all situations is beyond me.

Interesting... ok, let's find out why flat health is always better than dodge in 100% of all situations.

Effective Health is always king.

Ya, you already said that, let's get to the part where you prove me wrong.

RNG based tanking is always bad, You are flat out wrong.

Ohhhhh, you think I'm wrong, it's a good thing you reiterated that, I forgot what this was about.

There is no counter argument.

Oh ok, well let me keep reading here and once I get to your argument I won't bother replying.

Dodge/Parry are not good stats and are only worthwhile to take when the base item itself makes it so or there is no good alternative. In all things.

Uh huh, that is once again paraphrasing what you already said. Let me keep reading here and see why you think you are correct... oh wait, that's it. Uhmmm, ok.

Well... huh. You wrote one sentence making a claim, then you paraphrased that claim 4 different ways and thought that was an argument? Sorry but at this point I just think you're an idiot.

I still don't get why you're so angry, take a chill pill Mr.Armilus. I read your post earlier (the 20% of it that wasn't wowwiki tactics) and it has some good points that I agree with. However, I cannot see how the conclusion you draw from your "thesis" is avoidance > HP.

Besides, this quoting and twisting of words is just silly, IMO it looks like the agenda is not about answering the topic but rather about being right.

[Badtank]

Someone from exiled acting scummy and has an agenda? News at 11.

[Armilus]

I still don't get why you're so angry, take a chill pill Mr.Armilus. I read your post earlier (the 20% of it that wasn't wowwiki tactics) and it has some good points that I agree with. However, I cannot see how the conclusion you draw from your "thesis" is avoidance > HP.

Besides, this quoting and twisting of words is just silly, IMO it looks like the agenda is not about answering the topic but rather about being right.

What makes you think I'm mad? I was just pointing out that he didn't actually say anything and that it kind of makes him look stupid.

I would love to have a discussion about avoidance vs HP but it's impossible to respond to someone when they don't actually say anything. I was hoping that Badtank would come back with actual reasoning to back up his claim that avoidance is never good but it looks like he's just going to try to save face by saying "just trolling bro" and running away.

Meh.

[Badtank]

I never said that strawman, stop trying to make the argument look how you want it to. Dodge is not effective health, dodge dosen't help you vs. Breath Attacks, Spells, AoE Damageing spell like abilities or anything of the sort. Dodge helps you vs phsyical based abilities and so does health. Health is just always more reliable. Dodge is RNG based, you may dodge an attack that's correct but any tank worth his salt has had 20+ dodge and still gone 10 hits without a dodge before. Yet that health is always there, in all situations. Health is a reliable stat that can always be counted towards your EHP. Flat Health and Flat Damage reduction will always be the best stats for that exact reason, reliability.

[Xylon666Darkstar]

I like hp and greater stoneshield drugs.

[Armilus]

I never said that strawman, stop trying to make the argument look how you want it to. Dodge is not effective health, dodge dosen't help you vs. Breath Attacks, Spells, AoE Damageing spell like abilities or anything of the sort. Dodge helps you vs phsyical based abilities and so does health. Health is just always more reliable. Dodge is RNG based, you may dodge an attack that's correct but any tank worth his salt has had 20+ dodge and still gone 10 hits without a dodge before. Yet that health is always there, in all situations. Health is a reliable stat that can always be counted towards your EHP. Flat Health and Flat Damage reduction will always be the best stats for that exact reason, reliability.

First off, I just want to say thank you for this reply. Good stuff right here.

Second, in many situations you are absolutely correct. Dodge is not reliable when you are looking at a small number of big attacks and on most bosses in BWL (and some trash) it's only the big nukes that are going to kill you. That's why I said at the end of my first post that 100HP is the only option for BWL.

There's 2 things you are missing with dodge. When you are looking at a larger number of physical attacks and no one hit is any bigger than the rest, then dodge is a great stat because it starts to become more reliable. In 1000 hits, with 10% dodge you will dodge pretty close to 100 of those hits and with 11% you would dodge pretty close to 110.

I don't know how the mechanics will work on Nost but on ED we had a tank hold all the welps in the gauntlet before broodlord, that way we didn't have to worry about them respawning while the hunters pull and could AOE them all down at once before moving so we don't have random welps respawning on top of us and dazing people. It worked quite well but that many welps can do a lot of damage. In that situation, avoidance and block were both amazing due to the sheer number of hits you were taking and how small the hits were.

You need enough HP to survive the biggest burst that you will be hit with on a boss (and survive long enough for your healers to top you off again). If you have any HP beyond what you need for that it only helps cover the mistakes of your healers. If your healers aren't making mistakes... well then that extra HP is useless if it's never dipped into.

Like many things with tanking, it's situational. If you have high avoidance then you are going to have less "oh shit" moments on fights like broodlord. Just because it's RNG does not mean it's a bad stat, over the course of an entire raid you will have a lot less 'oh shit' moments and take less damage which means your healers can drink less and the run can move faster. Does this mean that 1% dodge enchant is better than 100HP enchant in BWL? No it doesn't, like you said, you need the reliability in BWL and there's a lot of non-physical attacks. But if the reliability wasn't a problem, dodge is absolutely better as any HP you don't dip into is a 'waste'.

I'm not advocating that dodge is better than HP in all situations or that HP is better than dodge in all situations because that is flat out wrong. In any situations where in coming damage is steady and reliable, then the RNG nature of avoidance isn't a big deal, the healers can see how fast your health bar is moving and heal accordingly. But if your incoming damage is very spikey you need a bigger buffer to survive those spikes. Once you have that buffer, avoidance is sexy alcohol infused icing on the cake. That's why warriors are better boss tanks than druids. They have a bit lower HP and lower armor but way higher avoidance. If avoidance was always a garbage stat, druids would be kings of any fight where mitigation is more important than threat.

[Badtank]

See this is the line of argument that people THINK is correct for dodge, that 11% dodge over 100 attacks equals 11 dodged attacks. That's not true, and that's the problem with gearing for avoidance over hp. Having 11% dodge means you have a 1.1/10 change of dodging every attack that comes your way. That still means you have a 89% fail rate on every single attack that comes at you. For almost my entire career as a tank every time I tank I have almost always found to get an ideal 1/5 avoidance chance it required nearly 20% in both dodge AND parry. Now even then you end up with two major problems. You can still get bad strings, and then your avoidance is worthless.

The second problem is overly good strings, dodgeing/parrying upwards of 5 attacks in a row. Now why is this bad you may ask? Anyone that has had this happen can tell you, it is super easy to screw up your healers when you don't get hit for upwards of 20 seconds. That sounds ideal but it's just not and that's the problem with the end game goal of avoidance, it makes you unpredictable as a tank and actually servers to make you harder to heal. A bigger health pool on the other hand ends up with total reliability. Every healer on you knows exactly where you stand, sure you might get less dodges but having a larger overall health pool ends up with you being more consistent overall every time over a dodge heavy tank. With def cap and a large health pool + good use of shield block you present the most stable tank to heal. You don't tend to spike and it often allows your healers to get into a better rhythm to heal you with. This ends up with less burst healing, more mana conserved, and less chance for user error.

[Gazpy]

See this is the line of argument that people THINK is correct for dodge, that 11% dodge over 100 attacks equals 11 dodged attacks. That's not true, and that's the problem with gearing for avoidance over hp. Having 11% dodge means you have a 1.1/10 change of dodging every attack that comes your way. That still means you have a 89% fail rate on every single attack that comes at you. For almost my entire career as a tank every time I tank I have almost always found to get an ideal 1/5 avoidance chance it required nearly 20% in both dodge AND parry. Now even then you end up with two major problems. You can still get bad strings, and then your avoidance is worthless.

He never said 100 hits, if you are doing % proofs on 100 hits then Jesus help you in 100 attacks you can go even 20 dodges with 10% dodge or you can go 0 but in real 10% dodge is 10% damage reduction in physical damage overall in whole raid.