Eviscerate vs Everything Else

[Nue]

I was checking out my skills and I realized that my finishing moves were less effective for each combo point, so I wanted to try a build that would capitalize on using finishers at their most power per point and came up with this: http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#fGe0oZhZE0csIGoso

Right now I'm level 58,
Eviserate does 175 damage @ 1cp (-35e, 60%+1cp, 20%pcp+25e)
Backstab does 200 damage (-60e, +30%crit)
Sinister Strike does 125 damage (-45e, sword)
Hemorrhage does 70 damage (-35e, +7dmg/att, dagger)

Right now my strategy is to start with Ambush, and then spam eviscerates one after the other using their hemorrhage or gouge if I have no CP.
Between Ruthlessness and Relentless Stirkes I can chain multiple eviscerates 1 after the other, and Setup can sometimes throw me an extra CP for bonus damage.
I pretty much doubled my dps from my previous combat build.

So... How much AP do you need before any other skill (besides Ambush) becomes more worth using than Eviscerate (1CP+)?

[Setup]

I had a similar intuition once, unfortunately this doesn't work out.

While it's true that eviscerate is less effective with each combo point, it's also true that sinister strike is a more efficient use of energy until you hit ~3 combo points.

Also, once you're 60, your priority becomes building slice/dice rather than evis.

[malleus]

This is possibly worth discussing a little more, not for raiding but for farming/leveling/5 man trash

It's true that SS is more energy efficient over time: Evisc does less damage per CP, but it costs 35 energy whether you use it with 1CP or 5, so a 5CP evisc saves you 140 energy. The resulting damage per CP isn't as high as 5 x 1CP eviscs, but 140 energy buys you three additional Sin Strikes.

But i did a little napkin math and maybe the picture isn't so clear for short fights.

At 6 seconds into a fight spamming 1CP evisc you get 2 x SS and 2 x Evisc, for 600 damage in the OP's case.

At the same 6 second mark, spamming SS you get 3 x SS for 375 damage. So out of the gate, it seems like alternating SS with Evisc is the clear winner even without the likely addition of a free CP from one of the two finishers.

Pooling CPs for a big finisher doesn't catch up till about the 12 second mark, when you unload your 4 CP finisher (we're not raiding here)...but then it's overtaken again by the Evisc spam strat at 14 seconds. The energy efficiency of CP pooling doesn't seem to be a clear winner until 20+ seconds.

I know nobody blindly saves up 4-5 CPs when it looks like the mob will be dead after 2, but I couldn't count the number of CPs I've lost over the years to warrior executes and clothy crits, so it's eye-opening for me to consider that SS > Ev > SS > Ev might be a better way to convert energy into damage on short fights.

Hmm but how does mob armor affect that though...2 x 1CP eviscerates get reduced by mob armor twice, whereas a 2CP evisc only takes the armor reduction once right?

[Kazarak]

This is a refreshing insight for Rogue leveling! I'll have to experiment with this tonight. Thanks!

[Kazarak]

As for armor: I thought armor reduction was a percentage. I wouldn't think one hit vs. two would make a difference.

[Anmercey]

I was checking out my skills and I realized that my finishing moves were less effective for each combo point, so I wanted to try a build that would capitalize on using finishers at their most power per point and came up with this: http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#fGe0oZhZE0csIGoso

Right now I'm level 58,
Eviserate does 175 damage @ 1cp (-35e, 60%+1cp, 20%pcp+25e)
Backstab does 200 damage (-60e, +30%crit)
Sinister Strike does 125 damage (-45e, sword)
Hemorrhage does 70 damage (-35e, +7dmg/att, dagger)

Right now my strategy is to start with Ambush, and then spam eviscerates one after the other using their hemorrhage or gouge if I have no CP.
Between Ruthlessness and Relentless Stirkes I can chain multiple eviscerates 1 after the other, and Setup can sometimes throw me an extra CP for bonus damage.
I pretty much doubled my dps from my previous combat build.

So... How much AP do you need before any other skill (besides Ambush) becomes more worth using than Eviscerate (1CP+)?

pvp? full sub?

this http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#fhj0oZhfZVMIcchRqo

[AgentMulder]

It's true that SS is more energy efficient over time: Evisc does less damage per CP, but it costs 35 energy whether you use it with 1CP or 5, so a 5CP evisc saves you 140 energy. The resulting damage per CP isn't as high as 5 x 1CP eviscs, but 140 energy buys you three additional Sin Strikes.

This.

If the argument is "Eviscerate vs everything else" then that argument is already flawed because you can't really compare Eviscerate to Sinister Strike or Backstab simply based on the game mechanics. If both moves generated combo points, or if both spent combo points, then sure...now we can theorycraft.

Not to mention weapon requirements. Ambush/Backstab requiring daggers wheras SS working best with a hard hitting sword/mace. It's also possible that the weapon can be so good that SS does outdamage a 1cp Eviscerate.

Eviscerate vs any other finisher is something that you could argue...but don't we already know that?

If you wanted to look at the damage per energy...then again don't we already know this? Eviscerate costs 35 energy regardless of how many combo points you spend to use it. So if you're going to use the move...in general you would want to use it with more combo points because the damage per energy is higher...always.

Now...throw in Ruthlessness. 60% chance to gain a combo point after you use a finisher. That's great...but you're still going to need to spend another 35 energy for that next 1cp Eviscerate.

Throw in Relentless Strikes. This talent encourages the building of combo points. Spam chaining 1cp Evicerates is the complete opposite of this and will not take advantage of this talent. Of course you can always get some really lucky RNG.

[Setup]

I've been wondering about the right dps rotation for vael as swords.

Specifically, I'm curious if it's better to evis on 3 combos rather than 5.

My intuition is 3 is the way to go.

[Bluefear]

Vael rotation is a good question. Obviously keeping SnD up is priority #1

Infinite energy, so Relentless strikes is useless.

Let's also assume 0/3 Imp Eviscerate. I don't think anyone runs this talent in raids. Note that it would change numbers in favor of 3CP Evis if they do.

As combat swords, averaging hits and crits, lets put SS avg dmg at 400, 5 CP Evis at 1.1k, and 3CP Evis at 600. These are anecdotal numbers at best, because I have no way to track my individual ability damage in raids.

--------------------------------

Lets say we have 96 GCDs to work with (easily divisible by 4 and 6), and SnD is always up

5CP Evis before Ruthlessness proc gives us a total of 80 SS and 16 5CP Evis

If Ruthlessness procs, it adds .2 of 5CP Evis dmg (1 SS lost while building CP, but 1 added due to extra GCD)

16 * 0.6 = 9.6 RLN procs = 2112 extra damage from procs compared to 0 procs (1100 * 0.2 * 9.6)

3CP Evis gives us 72 SS and 24 3CP Evis. RLN procs add 0.33 * 600

24 * 0.6 * 0.33 * 600 = 2880 dmg from RLN procs

So we have 400 * 80 + 1100 * 16 + 2112 vs 400 * 72 + 600 * 24 + 2880

51712 damage with 5CP Evis vs 46080 dmg with 3CP Evis

or 538.67 DPS vs 480 DPS (obviously not including white hits)

My estimated dmg numbers probably make all the difference, but my formulas should be correct. If anyone has better estimates of average SS/Evis damage in a raid setting it would be appreciated.

Also to note: SS benefits from Lethality, while Eviscerate does not. The higher your crit %, the better the 5CP Eviscerate option becomes

[malleus]

Just to follow up on my previous post after some testing.

It seems this is going to be a very "depends on your gear, depends on your level" kinda thing

My 1CP eviscerates were doing similar damage to my SS, then I got a new weapon and now my SS's are doing nearly 2x as much as my 1CP evisc. So even if I have 1CP to use on a nearly dead mob I'll probably use SS to finish it off if I have the energy.

Then when I get a new level of eviscerate that calculation is probably going to change :/