PvP - Dagger vs Sword (Backstab vs Hemorrhage)

[Youfie]

Daggers is better for 1v1ing Mages but Hemo is better for literally everything else.

As Daggers, you will struggle to kill geared players without using Thistle Tea or Renataki's (ZG trink). You also are forced into a play style where you have to kill people in your opener, and if you fail then your choices are to run away/reset the fight or die. It's also basically impossible to fit 5/5 Master of Deception in a Dagger build, and stealth is total shit without that talent. Lastly, you will spend a lot of time starving for energy as Daggers. Hemo costs HALF as much energy as backstab.

Hemo is better 1v1 EVERY class except Deep Frost Mages. Hemo is far better for 1vX and world PvP as well. You are able to use Blind, Gouge and Kick way more frequently and still have enough Energy pooled to do damage if you're playing right. You also build combo points on new targets basically TWICE as fast as Dagger spec

TL;DR
Daggers is good for fighting Frost Mages and killing under geared players, or gaking someone in Cheap Shot duration then Vanishing
Hemo is overall better PvP spec by miles. Play Hemo or you're retarded.

I agree with you, but MoD 5/5 fits just fine with a 31/8/12 or a 21/8/22 Build, which are the classic PvP Daggers Build.

[myooteme]

I'm not a r-tard :c

[rekc]

I guess the OP didn't specify but are we talking 1v1/Duels here or World PvP or BGs?

I agree with most of what you said but the burst potential for daggers is really good for BGs with big fights going on. The ability to quickly burst down a healer and re-stealth during a fight is actually really useful for BGs and should be the rogues primary role in fights with more than 5 people. I disagree with the statement that you have to kill people in your openers as daggers. While it is true to some degree I don't think that it's required to kill someone during the opener, you should have a lot more chances to get backstabs off.

Also a lot of what you said does not apply to the Seal Fate daggers build which generates combo points really well and is great with 5 nightslayer and 120 energy.

Daggers is better for 1v1ing Mages but Hemo is better for literally everything else.

As Daggers, you will struggle to kill geared players without using Thistle Tea or Renataki's (ZG trink). You also are forced into a play style where you have to kill people in your opener, and if you fail then your choices are to run away/reset the fight or die. It's also basically impossible to fit 5/5 Master of Deception in a Dagger build, and stealth is total shit without that talent. Lastly, you will spend a lot of time starving for energy as Daggers. Hemo costs HALF as much energy as backstab.

Hemo is better 1v1 EVERY class except Deep Frost Mages. Hemo is far better for 1vX and world PvP as well. You are able to use Blind, Gouge and Kick way more frequently and still have enough Energy pooled to do damage if you're playing right. You also build combo points on new targets basically TWICE as fast as Dagger spec

TL;DR
Daggers is good for fighting Frost Mages and killing under geared players, or gaking someone in Cheap Shot duration then Vanishing
Hemo is overall better PvP spec by miles. Play Hemo or you're retarded.

[Ohhgee]

I guess the OP didn't specify but are we talking 1v1/Duels here or World PvP or BGs?

I agree with most of what you said but the burst potential for daggers is really good for BGs with big fights going on. The ability to quickly burst down a healer and re-stealth during a fight is actually really useful for BGs and should be the rogues primary role in fights with more than 5 people. I disagree with the statement that you have to kill people in your openers as daggers. While it is true to some degree I don't think that it's required to kill someone during the opener, you should have a lot more chances to get backstabs off.

Also a lot of what you said does not apply to the Seal Fate daggers build which generates combo points really well and is great with 5 nightslayer and 120 energy.

Well in BGs if you're playing properly you should be guarding flag room/stalking EFC's in Warsong Gulch and typically guarding a flag or attempting ninja caps in AB. Both of those are easier to do as Hemo so not sure what you're getting at here.

As for being forced to kill people in the opener... my point was that if someone is well geared and a good player then you will never beat them toe to toe as a dagger Rogue. Once you have used Kidney Shot, if they are still alive then your options are to Vanish or
Blind and reset the fight, to gouge and *maybe* get one more Backstab off, or to spam sinister strikes that cost tons of energy and do horrible damage. The game is 11 years old and you can't just poison kite people around and backstab them to death like Rogue heroes did in retail vanilla unless they are utterly terrible.

As Hemo you always have tons of plays possible because you can do damage without having to be behind people, and you can build combo points fast

If your argument is that daggers is better for killing undergeared players or people that suck at the game, then yeah you're probably right

As for Seal Fate, it's not really viable until AQ level gear IMO

[Youfie]

As for being forced to kill people in the opener... my point was that if someone is well geared and a good player then you will never beat them toe to toe as a dagger Rogue. Once you have used Kidney Shot, if they are still alive then your options are to Vanish or
Blind and reset the fight, to gouge and *maybe* get one more Backstab off, or to spam sinister strikes that cost tons of energy and do horrible damage. The game is 11 years old and you can't just poison kite people around and backstab them to death like Rogue heroes did in retail vanilla unless they are utterly terrible.

A 31/8/12 Rogue with 120 Energy can just CS, Backstab then Expose Armor (Improved @ 2550 armor reduction ftw) and then just Gouge.

Then he'll have the choice to re-stealth or just open again with BS, putting him between 2 & 5 CP already depending on crits & build (usually 2-3 though), and KS when he'll enough energy to do so, without needing to use SS or anything.

I kinda agree with you about Hemo > Daggers in terms of ressourcefulness, but a Dagger Rogue can certainly beat good players too with the proper setup.
No matter how good of a player you are, getting 2 Backstabs under KS while you have little to 0 Armor is nothing you can easily survive .

[Slicy]

One thing you should keep in mind if you're still hesitating is that you should go for the spec you enjoy the most and you're the most comfortable with.
Unless you really dislike and cba going hemo, you shouldn't go daggers if you only have access to Lobotomizer at the moment though. It's garbage compared to what you would be able to do in hemo with Vis'Kag in any given situation with half a brain and a minimum of situation awareness.

Now of course that's theory. Hemo rogue not even able to lock down another one while having all CDs + opener is more common than you think.

[Acetabularia]

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A 31/8/12 Rogue with 120 Energy can just CS, Backstab then Expose Armor (Improved @ 2550 armor reduction ftw) and then just Gouge.

Then he'll have the choice to re-stealth or just open again with BS, putting him between 2 & 5 CP already depending on crits & build (usually 2-3 though), and KS when he'll enough energy to do so, without needing to use SS or anything.

I kinda agree with you about Hemo > Daggers in terms of ressourcefulness, but a Dagger Rogue can certainly beat good players too with the proper setup.
No matter how good of a player you are, getting 2 Backstabs under KS while you have little to 0 Armor is nothing you can easily survive .

And there's always tea or is that considered dirty?

[alextheone5]

I appreciate that hemo is more versitle in PvP allowing more control and shut down but IMO its so boring.
I am playing hemo at the moment with dual dal'rends and although I love the practicality I am finding it dull and daggers have always been my hearts choice. As soon as I ding exalted with AV I am going 21-8-22 with the Lobotomizer. It may not be as good but I will find it more fun and those ambush and backstab crits are so addictive.

[alextheone5]

Uh no, I just respecced 21-8-22 and played AV, I am not even kidding my backstab only crit like 1 in 5 and the same with ambush. How's that possible with 50% crit. Its either bugged or I have very bad luck. Getting those numbers and sacrifing hemo versitality I feel like a retard