Youfie's Combat Daggers Spreadsheet

[Youfie]

I'm curious on how you will fit Crusader into this. The dps differences can be quite big depending on when it procs during the fight/how many seconds you really benefit from it. This randomness seem quite hard to model.
Maybe by reducing its effective duration when a proc occurs by X % or Y secs ?.

Well, how I'm planning to model Crusader is pretty simple, and is as follows (if anyone has a suggestion on a better way, feel free to help me out !) :

Just like with DMC:M, HoJ or any other proc, what I need first is the average number of strikes per second you swing at your target, taking into account your haste and your Miss / Dodge rate & shit, with / without BF / AR.

Given your Weapon Speed and Crusader proc chance on each successful melee attack, we get the the average number of seconds it takes to get a Crusader proc, from which we get a Crusader average uptime (e.g. if you get a proc every 20 seconds, it is modeled as a 15 / (20 + 15) = 42,86% uptime), and thus the average Strength Bonus crusader grants you.

Then, using Excel sensitivity analysis tool, I basically ask him "Hey, what would be the Normal / BF / AR etc. DPS if I had +X more Strength as a base stat?" where X is the calculated average Strength bonus.

The randomness of the proc is indeed quite hard to model, but with this method, the fact that it procs more when using Blade Flurry / AR is taken into account, as well as the fact that you benefit more from a Crusader proc when under AR than when being off-cooldowns, but they're averaged.

I see no easy way to model properly things like a proc happening 1s before another one and thus being almost useless etc. tho.

If I'm not mistaken and checked correctly, Mongoose Boots are missing in Overview and in Gear List.

Indeed, I'll add them up!

- Is the "chance on hit" effects from enchantments/poisons/trinkets/talents/etc. considering the fact they can proc from non hits/crits like dodges and misses since it is the case on Nost ?

No, my spreadsheet doesn't assume misses & dodges can proc "on hit" effects. Is this really a thing on Nostalrius? Heard of it, never took it really seriously oO.
But no, my spreadsheet is blizz-like regarding that matter, kinda like the 40 AP Juju & Firewater stacking on Nost but not on my Spreadsheet.

Not making relevant differences at all but "Dire Maul" in Buffs & Weapons means +200 AP or +200 AP and +3% spellcrit ? Same question about Songflower for its spellcrit part.

The DM buffs is only +200 AP, and the Felwood buff doesn't apply to Poisons / DMC:M on my spreadsheet.
I'll fix that for the next update (what base crit chance for these effects should I use? Like 0,00% to crit on spells without these buffs I guess?) .

Thank you for your feedback!

[Slicy]

Alright sounds like the most accurate way of modeling Crusader. The "chance on hit" bug is making me think it can lead to more dps than 15 agi² with luck and the ability to play around procs & CDs relatively well.

On this subject, I'm sure it has to be taken seriously as I got a Perd proc from a dodge, same thing with Fiery Weapon enchant for another person, Crusader and poisons can proc from "immune" swings (not 100% sure, but "immune" shouldn't be considered as a "hit" in my opinion). It can also explain why weapons like Vis'Kag with a neat damage proc might in fact result in more dps than weapons we'd consider "better" on the paper.

As for DM & Felwood, I'm guessing the base chance to crit with poisons is indeed 0% as poison crits never happen otherwise. Same thing for DMC:M, never got a single crit so far without DM/Felwood/Ony.
Forgot to mention the 10% more spellcrit from Ony buff too.

There is another missing factor caming into my mind regarding poison/DMC:M : when your tank has http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=19019, your nature dmg changes a lot

EDIT : Base spellcrit chance is indeed 0% for rogues in vanilla. However, a guildmate got a Maelstrom crit without having any buffs directly increasing spellcrit chance like above mentionned ones.

Now the funny part is, rogues aren't supposed to get +spellcrit chance from intellect in vanilla. Yet Maelstrom crit happened with only an Arcane Intellect as buffs. I'm guessing the intellect into spellcrit conversion for rogues was changed from 0 to a >0 amount in TBC and we might have it on Nost. I'll make some tests in couple days with maximum intellect gear/buffs and see if I can reproduce a Maelstrom and/or poison crit.

Any extra information is welcomed ofc.

[Proven]

Hello Youfie!

First of all I want to thank you for the release of this spreadsheet. I’m very skeptical about DPS spreadsheets in general, but I like your approach of not overcomplicating the calculations. I also think the assumptions you make a very reasonable. While I won’t be using it to make my final choice about gearing, I think it’s a very valuable source for a “second opinion”.

By playing around with the spreadsheet I’d like to see the following points clarified / added in one of your next releases (if you’re planning to do any:)).

1. Felwood buff
The Felwood buff is currently only modeled with +5% Crit. However, the buff also gives +15 to all attributes.

2. Miss-chance for white-hits
In your assumptions you’re talking about 27% miss-chance for white-hits against a raid boss. However, going over your calculations for the critcap, it appears you calculate with 24.6%. So your critcap calculation is correct, but the assumption is not. This also correspondents with the values in Oto’s guide (big props to him aswell!).

3. Classbuffs
If you are modeling the classbuffs with talents you should do so consistently or give the user a choice of untalented / talented values. Currently there is no way to check except to pull out your calculator.

Battleshout is modeled with a value of 290. This would be the value of rank 7 (released with AQ20) and 5/5 talents (232 base * 1.25 talents = 290). The correct value as of today should be 185 base * 1.25 talents = 231.25.
Blessing of Might is modeled with the untalented value of 185. Talented value would be 185 base * 1.2 talent = 222.
Gift of the Wild is modeled with the untalented value of +16 all attributes. Talented value would be 16 base * 1.35 talent = 21.6.

4. Questions / Suggestions
Firstly, I can’t find the place in the spreadsheet where you put in the values for worldbuffs. Is there any way to check them apart calculating them from buffed / unbuffed values?
Secondly, it would be really nice to be able to edit the stats in a freeform format (editing all values manually). Sounds like a lot of work to me though.

Again, thanks a lot for your effort and most of all to make it public! Above points are what I could find in my first session. I take no responsibility for the values of the classbuffs as they’re all from the database and not checked in game.

Sincerely
Proven

[Youfie]

Alright sounds like the most accurate way of modeling Crusader. The "chance on hit" bug is making me think it can lead to more dps than 15 agi² with luck and the ability to play around procs & CDs relatively well.

On this subject, I'm sure it has to be taken seriously as I got a Perd proc from a dodge, same thing with Fiery Weapon enchant for another person, Crusader and poisons can proc from "immune" swings (not 100% sure, but "immune" shouldn't be considered as a "hit" in my opinion). It can also explain why weapons like Vis'Kag with a neat damage proc might in fact result in more dps than weapons we'd consider "better" on the paper.

Then this bug should be reported to the staff and fixed in priority I guess :'(.

As for DM & Felwood, I'm guessing the base chance to crit with poisons is indeed 0% as poison crits never happen otherwise. Same thing for DMC:M, never got a single crit so far without DM/Felwood/Ony.
Forgot to mention the 10% more spellcrit from Ony buff too.

EDIT : Base spellcrit chance is indeed 0% for rogues in vanilla. However, a guildmate got a Maelstrom crit without having any buffs directly increasing spellcrit chance like above mentionned ones.

Now the funny part is, rogues aren't supposed to get +spellcrit chance from intellect in vanilla. Yet Maelstrom crit happened with only an Arcane Intellect as buffs. I'm guessing the intellect into spellcrit conversion for rogues was changed from 0 to a >0 amount in TBC and we might have it on Nost. I'll make some tests in couple days with maximum intellect gear/buffs and see if I can reproduce a Maelstrom and/or poison crit.

Any extra information is welcomed ofc.

Alright, I'll put the base crit chance to 0,00% then, waiting for any information related to Intellect .

There is another missing factor caming into my mind regarding poison/DMC:M : when your tank has http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=19019, your nature dmg changes a lot

Well unless the target has Nature Resistance other than the 24 innate R. from being level 63, the TF proc shouldn't change anything regarding IP & DMC:M.

I guess I could add a section where one could edit their target's Resistances & shit to show the impact on IP & DMC:M tho. Not hard to do at all. I'm just too lazy for now, maybe later :p.

1. Felwood buff
The Felwood buff is currently only modeled with +5% Crit. However, the buff also gives +15 to all attributes.

I indeed overlooked that , will be fixed, thanks!

2. Miss-chance for white-hits
In your assumptions you’re talking about 27% miss-chance for white-hits against a raid boss. However, going over your calculations for the critcap, it appears you calculate with 24.6%. So your critcap calculation is correct, but the assumption is not. This also correspondents with the values in Oto’s guide (big props to him aswell!).

I have to admit I'm not following you : in my spreadsheet, I assumed a base Miss chance of 27% for a Rogue with 300 Daggers against a boss.

I did use the formula making the five first points of +Daggers worth 2% hit though, so if you look at a "naked" setup, you'll have a built-in 5% hit from Precision & 305 Weapon Skill from Weapon Expertise, giving you 27 - 2 - 5 = 20% Miss rate in the Details tab (cell I7).

Regarding my critcap calculations, well it isn't actually a "calculation", it just warns you when there isn't any Hit in the Attack Table, and then makes the substraction between the "actual" crit in the table and the "buffed" one you had in the Overview Tab, nothing more (well it just withdraws some crit to take into account the difference between Weapon Skill & Defense, which wasn't down right in the Overview tab to allow a quick check of one's in-game stats with the spreadsheet, as explained in the Read Me tab).

Anyway I might have understood you wrong here, so please tell me if you saw a mistake from me .

3. Classbuffs
If you are modeling the classbuffs with talents you should do so consistently or give the user a choice of untalented / talented values. Currently there is no way to check except to pull out your calculator.

Battleshout is modeled with a value of 290. This would be the value of rank 7 (released with AQ20) and 5/5 talents (232 base * 1.25 talents = 290). The correct value as of today should be 185 base * 1.25 talents = 231.25.
Blessing of Might is modeled with the untalented value of 185. Talented value would be 185 base * 1.2 talent = 222.
Gift of the Wild is modeled with the untalented value of +16 all attributes. Talented value would be 16 base * 1.35 talent = 21.6.

Well, obviously I've been too careless when setting up these buffs, thanks for the numbers.

It's kind of a choice from me to always assume max Talented values for all buffs, since I assume everyone is playing the best possible PvE spec & shit.

I'll make sure every buff is Talented / Untalented in a consistent way though, or maybe I'll add a way to chose if you want an improved BoM or not, I'll see.


==> On the same matter, can anyone tell me exactly how much Agility / Strength are Grace of Air & Strength of Earth Totems? With / WIthout any talent that might affect them . And Windfury too, the exact AP bonus.

And most importantly, the stats of some naked Trolls / Orcs / Undead Rogues at level 60 would save me some time and allow me to include them in my spreadsheet!

4. Questions / Suggestions
Firstly, I can’t find the place in the spreadsheet where you put in the values for worldbuffs. Is there any way to check them apart calculating them from buffed / unbuffed values?
Secondly, it would be really nice to be able to edit the stats in a freeform format (editing all values manually). Sounds like a lot of work to me though.

Oh, you mean getting the Normal / BF / AR / BF + AR & Average DPS gains from Onyxia, Felwood, Hakkar's head & shit? No, indeed, it's not possible to see that apart from checking your DPS with / without them.
It seems pretty easy to add this feature though, so I might add it .


Thank you for your feedback, Proven, much appreciated!


Regards,

Youfie

[Proven]

Hey!

I have to admit I'm not following you : in my spreadsheet, I assumed a base Miss chance of 27% for a Rogue with 300 Daggers against a boss.

I did use the formula making the five first points of +Daggers worth 2% hit though, so if you look at a "naked" setup, you'll have a built-in 5% hit from Precision & 305 Weapon Skill from Weapon Expertise, giving you 27 - 2 - 5 = 20% Miss rate in the Details tab (cell I7).

If anyone with more insight could chime in here it would be really nice. I really don't have that much experience with weapon skill / hit-table. Is there any source for the first +5 Daggerskill giving +2% hit against a raidboss?

Regarding my critcap calculations, well it isn't actually a "calculation", it just warns you when there isn't any Hit in the Attack Table, and then makes the substraction between the "actual" crit in the table and the "buffed" one you had in the Overview Tab, nothing more (well it just withdraws some crit to take into account the difference between Weapon Skill & Defense, which wasn't down right in the Overview tab to allow a quick check of one's in-game stats with the spreadsheet, as explained in the Read Me tab).

Anyway I might have understood you wrong here, so please tell me if you saw a mistake from me .

What I meant with the critcap calculation is that I put in my stats and reverse-calculated your assumed base miss-chance. Example with no hit from gear nor talents: 100-40-24.6-5.6=29.8. Putting in my actual hit of +11%: 100-40-24.6-5.6+11=40.8. I was confused because by putting in 27 instead of the 24.6 as base miss-chance the calculation of your spreadsheet wouldn't add up.

Sorry for the confusion, but I think your calculations are all correct. If I understood correctly, the crit value displayed in the overview sheet (J28) should match the crit value in the ingame chractersheet.

Well, obviously I've been too careless when setting up these buffs, thanks for the numbers.

It's kind of a choice from me to always assume max Talented values for all buffs, since I assume everyone is playing the best possible PvE spec & shit.

I'll make sure every buff is Talented / Untalented in a consistent way though, or maybe I'll add a way to chose if you want an improved BoM or not, I'll see.

Cool. It's pretty minor I know but all the little differences add up. I think the biggest flaw here was the rank 7 Battleshout which isn't avaiable yet.

Oh, you mean getting the Normal / BF / AR / BF + AR & Average DPS gains from Onyxia, Felwood, Hakkar's head & shit? No, indeed, it's not possible to see that apart from checking your DPS with / without them.
It seems pretty easy to add this feature though, so I might add it .

Although it sounds like a really good idea, what I meant is actually much simpler. I wanted to check the values of the worldbuffs themselves just to double-check like I did with the Felwood buff. It was kind of a coincidence I found out the +15 all attributes missing.

Proven

[Youfie]

Regarding the 300 -> 305 WS granting +2% Hit against a raidboss, found this on Oto's thread / the warrior subforum I think : viewtopic.php?f=37&t=5412&start=170#p132254 (don't have time to dig through).

And indeed, the Buffed crit (J28?) cell should match the in-game tooltip of the Spellbook.
I'll take a look at what you said about my critcap not adding up as soon as I'll get the time to do so .

Regarding Worldbuffs, Onyxia's crit is in the "Buffed Stats" -> "Crit", and its AP bonus in "Buffed Stats" -> "Attack Power".

Felwood is in the Buffed Crit cell as well.

Hakkar is both in the Buffed Agility & Strength : I assumed it was additive with BoK : if you have BoK + Hakkar, you'll get +30% All Agility / Strength, as stated by the formula in these cells.

Is it a bit more clear, or did I miss your point?

[Aslan]

Incalculating the fact that a boss has 315 def when you make the critcap conclusion? -0.6% crit, starting from your tooltip which already includes the crit from your own weaponskill additions

[Youfie]

Incalculating the fact that a boss has 315 def when you make the critcap conclusion? -0.6% crit, starting from your tooltip which already includes the crit from your own weaponskill additions

Yes, the ingame tooltip does take into account crit from +Skill, but it assumes a target the same level as the Player.
Hence my "trick" so that the in-game tooltip matches my Spreadsheet and the Attaack Table taking into account the correct crit value (against a 63) at the same time.

[rekc]

Thanks Youfie for the spreadsheet! It's really well done.

I'm just curious - can I use this for swords as well If I input the gear myself?

[Proven]

Hello again!

Finally got time to actually use the spreadsheet while at home with access to my character!

Regarding the 300 -> 305 WS granting +2% Hit against a raidboss, found this on Oto's thread / the warrior subforum I think : viewtopic.php?f=37&t=5412&start=170#p132254 (don't have time to dig through).

And indeed, the Buffed crit (J28?) cell should match the in-game tooltip of the Spellbook.
I'll take a look at what you said about my critcap not adding up as soon as I'll get the time to do so .

Eagerly awaiting the final verdict about critcap as I think it's one the most important things to get right here. As metioned before, I think your calculations are correct as is. Sorry again if I caused any misconceptions here.

Yes, the ingame tooltip does take into account crit from +Skill, but it assumes a target the same level as the Player.
Hence my "trick" so that the in-game tooltip matches my Spreadsheet and the Attaack Table taking into account the correct crit value (against a 63) at the same time.

This is easily one of the best features, although you have to be very careful (see point 2).

Now to some more things I've noticed.

1. BF and AR durations
These are currently modeled with 20 sec each. I was about to mention it in my first post but I wasn't 100% sure. Now by checking ingame, the duration for both abilities is 15 sec.

2. Backstab crit-chance in Details sheet
For the backstab crit-chance (B24) you are taking the critchance from the Overview sheet +30%. In my opinion you should take the "real" crit-chance from Details sheet (M24) +30%.

3. Item: Blackmist Armguards
Currently they don't have any strength on them.
Current Stats: 1% hit, 13 stam, 5 spirit

4. Classbuffs
Please ignore all values from my first post. Following values are checked ingame (calculated from buffed-unbuffed, not tooltip!).
These are BASE / UNTALENTED values:
Battleshout: 193 AP (seems bugged, but I comfirmed the value with two different warriors)
Blessing of MIght: 155 AP
Mark of the Wild: +12 all attributes

Would be really nice if someone could doublecheck these and also add the talented versions (I think we only need 5/5).

Lastly I want to provide you all with two (hopefully) helpful ressources.

1. http://bit.ly/1jeuInj "Lethality: The Truth" Very good article about the Lethality talent. As Combat Dagger we don't really have the points to play around with other stuff but it might come in handy in the future.

2. http://bit.ly/1jcSUWB "Spell Penetration Guide" Best ressource I could find about raidboss innate resistances / spellhit in general. This might be useful to model poision / maelstrom DPS. Disclaimer: None of these values were confirmed by me or anyone else for the Nostalrius server.

Have a nice evening all!

Proven