Understanding the rogue class: Soyoen's way

[Particles]

Can felstriker proc on misses/dodges?

The felstriker proc damage also seems to be off. In the spreadsheet you calculate how many ss, MH, OH, and evisc will be affected by felstriker every minute, and then say felstriker is providing that times the crit modifier damage every minute. The issue is that a felstriker'd swing will be a guaranteed crit, but it's replacing a normal swing, so felstriker's dps is (Crit Damage - Expected Damage)*affected swings per minute. Expected Damage would be (Crit Mod * Crit Chance + Hit Chance + Glance Chance * Glance Mod)*Average Dmg, or something similar for yellows.

I think that means felstriker's proc is being overvalued by at least a factor of 2, which is why the sheet is saying it's better than raid weapons OH.

[Aslan]

What was your calculation concerning crit cap based on on the spreadsheet, 5.6% dodge and the miss rate? 24.6 or 27?
Or following "vanilla"-wiki with the -2% miss reduction on 305 wpn skill and then the blabla formula there?

[Soyoen]

Can felstriker proc on misses/dodges?

Not in this sheet; the totmh/s and oh/s numbers showing in that area of the sheet is shown after eventual misses/dodges has occured. If you click on the individual data (MHswings/s as example) you'll see that it accounts for those occurances. From what I have heard on Nostalrius certain procs can occur on misses and dodges, which of course wont be featured in the sheet unless there's a reliable source that states that X can proc in such manner.

The felstriker proc damage also seems to be off. In the spreadsheet you calculate how many ss, MH, OH, and evisc will be affected by felstriker every minute, and then say felstriker is providing that times the crit modifier damage every minute.

Bit my tongue on this sentence, the fault is at (Damage_calculations!)AM28:AP28 and AM34:AP34. MHAtks factor in the miss chance on attack for the amount of time and provides that they are criticals, same applies to OHAtks whilst SS/Evisatks gains a critical strike boost. Due to the damage calculation in the above quoted cells currently factors the crit gain to dps as a whole, the factor was overvalued at ~1.53 (from ~26 to ~17dps when equipped in MH).

There is however a gain in the hitrate that I see is not fully accounted for hence the <2 factor. This hitrate gain needs to be calculated with an standalone to the MHswingsetc/s that only accounts to the unavoidable dodge chance on mh/oh hits in order to provide accurate gain from the hit gain during the uptime. I will most likely stick with the same uptime formula, although in reality the uptime may be a few 0,0XXsec higher than what stands in the sheet due to the increased chance to hit during the felstrikers uptime.

I will see if I can get this done before tomorrow, remember to turn back the clocks tonight

Edit (for Aslan)

What was your calculation concerning crit cap based on on the spreadsheet, 5.6% dodge and the miss rate? 24.6 or 27?
Or following "vanilla"-wiki with the -2% miss reduction on 305 wpn skill and then the blabla formula there?

In terms of the base miss I went with the known blizzard value of 24,6%. In terms of calculating the crit cap in the damage_calculations spreadsheet you will see that depending on the choice of opponents the amount of glancing hits will vary (and thus increasing/decreasing the crit cap). In terms of the formula where the amount of hit gain/loss is greater after 11 skill points, it's a work in progress on the hold list as every raiding rogue will by default not be affected by it (315-305=10). When I however start adding more lowlevel items and the players choice to configurate their own levels this is something that I will need to implement (as players leveling are not bound to have +5skill from talents). I need to state though that obviously the difference between the opponents defence skill and your weapon skill will have affect on the dodge and miss chance.


Best of regards
Soyoen

[Aslan]

Going with 0.04% in this current scenario though?

[Soyoen]

Going with 0.04% in this current scenario though?

I will in the coming mini update make sure the miss chance applies like this: http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Miss?oldid=347939, as in the base miss (for yellows) becoming static at 5% with the 0,04%*Weapon skill difference. Aka 5,6% for 63 mobs, 5,4% for 62 mobs, 5,2% for 61 mobs.
Edit: Sheet effects can now be seen in the special combat table (very minor) if you have less hit than 6%.

I will aside from that adjust the formula so that ut correlates to the weapon skill gain here: http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Weapon_skill?oldid=349298
Edit: This was already done correctly.

Also this will be applied: http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Dodge?oldid=347957

Each point of Defense over the attacker's Attack skill adds 0.04% Dodge against players and 0.1% against mobs; on the other hand, each point of Defense below the attacker's Attack skill cuts Dodge by 0.04% against players and 0.1% against mobs.

Edit: This was already applied correctly.

Interpretating the above with old sheets and likewise that is available from the time the unavoidable dodge will be put at a base of 5%(similar to the miss) and then increasing/decreasing dependent on the weapon skill difference.
Edit: Sheet difference ~0,6% on the crit cap, same amount more hits (glancing/normal hits divide).


Additional
Looking a few more times on how dodge/block/parry/miss(yellows) was handled, I'll state that the 24,6% is an effect of 24% [BASE] + 0,04*Weapon skill difference. That logic would follow the other mechanics; older sheets of the day mention as example 24,6% with a 315 defence skill and 300 weapon skill on the attacker, but they did often not change in value on the similar mechanics like they should have.

[Particles]

Bit my tongue on this sentence, the fault is at (Damage_calculations!)AM28:AP28 and AM34:AP34. MHAtks factor in the miss chance on attack for the amount of time and provides that they are criticals, same applies to OHAtks whilst SS/Evisatks gains a critical strike boost. Due to the damage calculation in the above quoted cells currently factors the crit gain to dps as a whole, the factor was overvalued at ~1.53 (from ~26 to ~17dps when equipped in MH).

There is however a gain in the hitrate that I see is not fully accounted for hence the <2 factor. This hitrate gain needs to be calculated with an standalone to the MHswingsetc/s that only accounts to the unavoidable dodge chance on mh/oh hits in order to provide accurate gain from the hit gain during the uptime. I will most likely stick with the same uptime formula, although in reality the uptime may be a few 0,0XXsec higher than what stands in the sheet due to the increased chance to hit during the felstrikers uptime.

Simple solution:
Done for MHswings but I assume you can extrapolate to the others:

AM33=1/J10*AL33 Real simple, how many swings you take on average, that could possibly be affected.
AM34=AM33*B3*(2*(100-E4)/100-(2*E6+E7+E5*($Main_Sheet.B18/100))/100)
i.e. The damage per minute gain is the number of MH swings (of any kind) per minute that are affected, times the modifier change from Hit + Glance*Glancingmod + Crit * 2 to 2 *(100%- Dodge), all times the average swing's damage.

[Soyoen]

Bit my tongue on this sentence, the fault is at (Damage_calculations!)AM28:AP28 and AM34:AP34. MHAtks factor in the miss chance on attack for the amount of time and provides that they are criticals, same applies to OHAtks whilst SS/Evisatks gains a critical strike boost. Due to the damage calculation in the above quoted cells currently factors the crit gain to dps as a whole, the factor was overvalued at ~1.53 (from ~26 to ~17dps when equipped in MH).

There is however a gain in the hitrate that I see is not fully accounted for hence the <2 factor. This hitrate gain needs to be calculated with an standalone to the MHswingsetc/s that only accounts to the unavoidable dodge chance on mh/oh hits in order to provide accurate gain from the hit gain during the uptime. I will most likely stick with the same uptime formula, although in reality the uptime may be a few 0,0XXsec higher than what stands in the sheet due to the increased chance to hit during the felstrikers uptime.

Simple solution:
Done for MHswings but I assume you can extrapolate to the others:

AM33=1/J10*AL33 Real simple, how many swings you take on average, that could possibly be affected.
AM34=AM33*B3*(2*(100-E4)/100-(2*E6+E7+E5*($Main_Sheet.B18/100))/100)
i.e. The damage per minute gain is the number of MH swings (of any kind) per minute that are affected, times the modifier change from Hit + Glance*Glancingmod + Crit * 2 to 2 *(100%- Dodge), all times the average swing's damage.

I tested the formula in the test version of the sheet, previously you mentioned that the proc seemed overvalued - which was corrected. With the formula provided the DPS is moving towards previous levels and I do see what perspective the formula is coming from namely:

Chance on hit: All attacks are guaranteed to land and will be critical strikes for the next 3 sec.

If you take a look I interpretated the proc in terms of that it basicly removes your miss chance and caps you out on the crit cap. Meaning I factored out the glancing blow part of the combat table from being affected by it due to the glancing blow occurance being tied to the weapon skill difference.

I do agree that the formula provided can be used, but in this specific case as I'm very unsure (and looking for information) how these two mechanics overlap with each other (Glancing blow vs Felstriker proc) I would really like to have more information on how they seem to overlap (and honestly since it's a very specific overlap I'd love input from felstriker users as I have doubts that there are any good sources from the days on this).

This is however what I'm thinking if the formula is to be used with the glancing blows included: Either (1) the glancing blow occurance is put at the minimum during the proc as they mechanically should not be able to crit, or that (2) the glancing blows occur but instead are treated and labeled as normal hits that can crit and will crit due to the proc, or (3) that all NPCs are treated as they are 1 level below you during the duration and hence glancing blows cannot occur with Athans formula.

What are your thoughts on my reasoning Particles?


TL;DR: The Felstriker proc is either undertuned by 5-8dps in the current release depending on the mechanical interaction between the proc and the occurance and attributes of glancing blows.

[Particles]

This is however what I'm thinking if the formula is to be used with the glancing blows included: Either (1) the glancing blow occurance is put at the minimum during the proc as they mechanically should not be able to crit, or that (2) the glancing blows occur but instead are treated and labeled as normal hits that can crit and will crit due to the proc, or (3) that all NPCs are treated as they are 1 level below you during the duration and hence glancing blows cannot occur with Athans formula.

My mistake, I was completely confused as to your original formula, though I think I understand it now. Afaik felstriker'd hits can't glance, but I'd like confirmation on that.

I'm trying to remember why I was so sure felstriker was a poor offhand on this server (compared to raid weapons like viskag): I have a feeling the procrate isn't 4% on this server, but I haven't seen anything but first hand accounts and the fact that nobody uses it. https://forum.nostalrius.org/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=22677

Also, the OH swings affected (for felstriker OH) should be calculated differently, because the swing timers will always line up. Assuming a swing that procs felstiker isn't affected, you get exactly 3/1.7 round down, or 1 affected swing per proc for no S&D, and 3/1.7*1.3 round down, or 2 affected swings per proc with S&D.

[50shadesofayyy]

Excellent guide Soyoen

[bockhorn]

I must be retarded or something, but I fail to see the use of the spreadsheet, items are missing, and how do I specify what talents I'm using?