Rogue Guide by Oto

[Aslan]

I have 0 will to do the exact math on this, but yours about the rapidity seems to lack a few thoughts. Imagine a fight lasting for 30 seconds (totally doable with a geared guild currently in MC).
Lets go with viskag, 2 sec speep with snd, you get 15 mh, x oh and y yellow hits.
Now assume the fight lasted 29.7 seconds, just under 30. You would get one less hit with voracity but the same with rapidities. So in this case rapidity provides 1 mh white attack in comparison to all other attacks with -16 agility due to lost voracity.

Now if anyone wants to do math on this, how likely a fight is to end with rapidity granting 1 hit more go ahead, but just trying to illustrate how rapidity does NOT only give a benefit after a certain amount of time!

The extreme exemple: fight lasts 1.98 seconds, no rapidity = you can get 1 hit in, 2 rapidities = you can fit 2 attacks in..
Thanks to Knife at this point .

[Youfie]

I have 0 will to do the exact math on this, but yours about the rapidity seems to lack a few thoughts. Imagine a fight lasting for 30 seconds (totally doable with a geared guild currently in MC).
Lets go with viskag, 2 sec speep with snd, you get 15 mh, x oh and y yellow hits.
Now assume the fight lasted 29.7 seconds, just under 30. You would get one less hit with voracity but the same with rapidities. So in this case rapidity provides 1 mh white attack in comparison to all other attacks with -16 agility due to lost voracity.

Now if anyone wants to do math on this, how likely a fight is to end with rapidity granting 1 hit more go ahead, but just trying to illustrate how rapidity does NOT only give a benefit after a certain amount of time!

The extreme exemple: fight lasts 1.98 seconds, no rapidity = you can get 1 hit in, 2 rapidities = you can fit 2 attacks in..
Thanks to Knife at this point .

That's indeed one way to see things I hadn't in mind to be honest, thank you for your input .

However, even with your approach, there can only be a one-hit difference between Rapidity / no rapidity (with mine it's possible, but the fight has to be quite long & shit), which tends to cap the DPS gain (if any) of rapidity, doesn't it?

Does anyone know how Dense Sharpening Stone matches up vs Instant poison in terms of dps gain as a combat dagger rogue ?

From my own calculation, the +8 Stone is, sadly, inferior to IP in MH as a 15/31/5 Dagger Rogue.

I've done simulations with different sets of gear (pre-MC and T3) and it doesn't seem to change, despite the fact that the +8 Stone is supposed to scale a little bit with the Rogue's gear.
My number might not be the most accurate btw, but that's what I I found.

[Sfactor]

Anyone have data on ironfoe yet? There is about zero mention of it. I plan to use it in pve. Was thinking to just use combat spec with mace. The stun isn't that useful but it also give 5 mace weapon skill. Any thoughts???

[Solmyr]

From my own calculation, the +8 Stone is, sadly, inferior to IP in MH as a 15/31/5 Dagger Rogue.

I've done simulations with different sets of gear (pre-MC and T3) and it doesn't seem to change, despite the fact that the +8 Stone is supposed to scale a little bit with the Rogue's gear.
My number might not be the most accurate btw, but that's what I I found.

Reminds me that I need to do the math on crit stones vs IP in a BWL environment >.<. Thanks Obama...

[Youfie]

From my own calculation, the +8 Stone is, sadly, inferior to IP in MH as a 15/31/5 Dagger Rogue.

I've done simulations with different sets of gear (pre-MC and T3) and it doesn't seem to change, despite the fact that the +8 Stone is supposed to scale a little bit with the Rogue's gear.
My number might not be the most accurate btw, but that's what I I found.

Reminds me that I need to do the math on crit stones vs IP in a BWL environment >.<. Thanks Obama...

Done the maths, and +2% crit stones are inferior to IP too. Can't remember if they were better than +8 Damage tho. My calculations were done for a 15/31/5 setup so I guess IP would be even better if you're going with 30/16/5 spec. to BWL (Imp. Poisons).

Haven't done the calculations for Vael fight tho, maybe one of the stones comes ahead.

Keep us updated about your own findings .

[Solmyr]

From my own calculation, the +8 Stone is, sadly, inferior to IP in MH as a 15/31/5 Dagger Rogue.

I've done simulations with different sets of gear (pre-MC and T3) and it doesn't seem to change, despite the fact that the +8 Stone is supposed to scale a little bit with the Rogue's gear.
My number might not be the most accurate btw, but that's what I I found.

Reminds me that I need to do the math on crit stones vs IP in a BWL environment >.<. Thanks Obama...

Done the maths, and +2% crit stones are inferior to IP too. Can't remember if they were better than +8 Damage tho. My calculations were done for a 15/31/5 setup so I guess IP would be even better if you're going with 30/16/5 spec. to BWL (Imp. Poisons).

Haven't done the calculations for Vael fight tho, maybe one of the stones comes ahead.

Keep us updated about your own findings .

Although my empirical tests in BWL on ED showed the same, the margin of difference was quite insignificant. Since from a theoretical point of view, crit stones slowly gain on the flat dmg of IP as your AP scales up, the point where the stones will surpass IP either somewhere around BWL BiS or early AQ. Of course in AQ the poisons fall off for other reasons, but even if these reasons were not there, the crit stones would still catch up and surpass IP.

My tests and calculations were always based on 32/19/0 with maladath as offhand. For daggers with a faster OH it is conceivable that the margin would be wider in favour of IP and perhaps the decision is much more of a no brainer.

[Youfie]

Although my empirical tests in BWL on ED showed the same, the margin of difference was quite insignificant. Since from a theoretical point of view, crit stones slowly gain on the flat dmg of IP as your AP scales up, the point where the stones will surpass IP either somewhere around BWL BiS or early AQ. Of course in AQ the poisons fall off for other reasons, but even if these reasons were not there, the crit stones would still catch up and surpass IP.

My tests and calculations were always based on 32/19/0 with maladath as offhand. For daggers with a faster OH it is conceivable that the margin would be wider in favour of IP and perhaps the decision is much more of a no brainer.

I don't know about Swords, I'm only doing the mats for 15/31/5 so far.

I'm curious about other people finding's cause in my case, surprisingly, IP stays ahead whatever by a fair margin whatever the gear is, be it versus +8 Damage or +2% crit stones, either on OH or MH (ofc I'm just taking into account standard resists for IP).

[sojs]

I have 0 will to do the exact math on this, but yours about the rapidity seems to lack a few thoughts. Imagine a fight lasting for 30 seconds (totally doable with a geared guild currently in MC).
Lets go with viskag, 2 sec speep with snd, you get 15 mh, x oh and y yellow hits.
Now assume the fight lasted 29.7 seconds, just under 30. You would get one less hit with voracity but the same with rapidities. So in this case rapidity provides 1 mh white attack in comparison to all other attacks with -16 agility due to lost voracity.

Now if anyone wants to do math on this, how likely a fight is to end with rapidity granting 1 hit more go ahead, but just trying to illustrate how rapidity does NOT only give a benefit after a certain amount of time!

The extreme exemple: fight lasts 1.98 seconds, no rapidity = you can get 1 hit in, 2 rapidities = you can fit 2 attacks in..
Thanks to Knife at this point .

That's indeed one way to see things I hadn't in mind to be honest, thank you for your input .

However, even with your approach, there can only be a one-hit difference between Rapidity / no rapidity (with mine it's possible, but the fight has to be quite long & shit), which tends to cap the DPS gain (if any) of rapidity, doesn't it?

Does anyone know how Dense Sharpening Stone matches up vs Instant poison in terms of dps gain as a combat dagger rogue ?

From my own calculation, the +8 Stone is, sadly, inferior to IP in MH as a 15/31/5 Dagger Rogue.

I've done simulations with different sets of gear (pre-MC and T3) and it doesn't seem to change, despite the fact that the +8 Stone is supposed to scale a little bit with the Rogue's gear.
My number might not be the most accurate btw, but that's what I I found.

Thanks for the reply

[pomfittes]

Hey, i was wondering as combat daggers.

Cadaverous armor ( 8 agi, 8 strenght + 60 AP ) vs Tier 1 chest ?
Will cadaverous armor win before you get 5x set bonus?
- I also have around 30.5% crit chance unbuffed and 710 ish AP

Also, this is my current gear: http://realmplayers.com/CharacterViewer ... =Pomfittes ( with cada ) not updated yet. and i also use Rune of the guard captain ( 20 ap 1 hit )

Should i go with Muggers belt or:
http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=14502

My current hit is 5% from talents ofc, and 7% from gear. so a total of 12%

[enjoyr14]

I'm sorry but your maths on crit>hit after 8%hit until you reach crit cap are incorrect because you don't take in account :
-Lethality
-More sword procs thanks to hit
-More hoj procs thanks to hit
-More poisons procs thanks to hit
-More crusaders uptime thanks to hit
-More WF proc thanks to hit (horde obv), then have to take in account the AP increase thanks to WF buff
-Duration of the fight

Regarding crit bonus and extra attack :
-Crit chance doesn't increase your chance to get a proc.
-Crit bonus will only do 100% normal damage (130% with lethality on yellow hits), where extra attacks can do 100% or 200% normal damage.
-There is a lot of stuff going on with extra attacks in vanilla (more procs thanks to procs etc...).