Rogue Guide by Oto

[Youfie]

Glad we actually agreed on some things .

The thing is, I really don't see how you can model a proc differently depending on the duration of a fight.

I mean, you can take a sample of 50s in which you'll get 0 hits, and another one in which you'll get 10. That's why you end up taking into account the average number of procs in the long run, and apply it to a shorter duration.

I'm no maths expert, but I don't see any other way to do it better, do you?

[Fyralix]

I've been reading through this entire topic and I am still unsure which gear i should have equipped. So here goes the conditions.

I have NS belt, Mugger's Belt, Distracting Dagger, Felstriker, Electrified Dagger.
I am combat daggers specced.
I play human.
My gear is mostly pre raid BiS (according to this guide).

The question is whether to use NS belt + Felstriker in MH + Distracting in OH or to use Mugger's Belt + Electrified in MH and Felstriker in OH?

Felstriker MH with Distracting OH seems the best to me but according to this guide Felstriker should be in OH. Can anybody give me a proper explanation to which alternative is better?

Regards,
Ankaret

[Youfie]

I've been reading through this entire topic and I am still unsure which gear i should have equipped. So here goes the conditions.

I have NS belt, Mugger's Belt, Distracting Dagger, Felstriker, Electrified Dagger.
I am combat daggers specced.
I play human.
My gear is mostly pre raid BiS (according to this guide).

The question is whether to use NS belt + Felstriker in MH + Distracting in OH or to use Mugger's Belt + Electrified in MH and Felstriker in OH?

Felstriker MH with Distracting OH seems the best to me but according to this guide Felstriker should be in OH. Can anybody give me a proper explanation to which alternative is better?

Regards,
Ankaret

Hey, the fact that you own a Felstriker changes everything indeed. Its procs is pretty sweet.

I haven't taken time to do some simulation with Felstriker yet myself, as I don't know its procrate, and it kinda hard to model on excel with ease.
I still want to do it when I'll have time to do so though, so if you have an idea of the proc chance, please share it .

For best accuracy, maybe record it with Proc Watch on several thousands of hits to have a lower error margin.

[Fyralix]

I've been reading through this entire topic and I am still unsure which gear i should have equipped. So here goes the conditions.

I have NS belt, Mugger's Belt, Distracting Dagger, Felstriker, Electrified Dagger.
I am combat daggers specced.
I play human.
My gear is mostly pre raid BiS (according to this guide).

The question is whether to use NS belt + Felstriker in MH + Distracting in OH or to use Mugger's Belt + Electrified in MH and Felstriker in OH?

Felstriker MH with Distracting OH seems the best to me but according to this guide Felstriker should be in OH. Can anybody give me a proper explanation to which alternative is better?

Regards,
Ankaret

Hey, the fact that you own a Felstriker changes everything indeed. Its procs is pretty sweet.

I haven't taken time to do some simulation with Felstriker yet myself, as I don't know its procrate, and it kinda hard to model on excel with ease.
I still want to do it when I'll have time to do so though, so if you have an idea of the proc chance, please share it .

For best accuracy, maybe record it with Proc Watch on several thousands of hits to have a lower error margin.

Procwatcher doesnt record procs from Felstriker .

However, since Felstriker is 0.1s slower than Electrified Dagger but still has the same damage, isn't Felstriker by default the best choice for MH since the proc will occur more frequently if wielded in MH? (I'm 100% certain that it has a flat percental proc chance without an internal CD). If that is the case then Electrified Dagger would be eliminated as an option, leaving the combination Felstriker + Distracting Dagger + NS belt as the only option. Is that a correct train of thought?

[Solmyr]

However, since Felstriker is 0.1s slower than Electrified Dagger but still has the same damage, isn't Felstriker by default the best choice for MH since the proc will occur more frequently if wielded in MH? (I'm 100% certain that it has a flat percental proc chance without an internal CD). If that is the case then Electrified Dagger would be eliminated as an option, leaving the combination Felstriker + Distracting Dagger + NS belt as the only option. Is that a correct train of thought?

The bold part makes me think you know nothing about how weapon speed normalisation works for daggers.

tl;didn't bother to write - use felstriker in MH.

If someone more patient wants to explain why, go ahead .

[Fyralix]

However, since Felstriker is 0.1s slower than Electrified Dagger but still has the same damage, isn't Felstriker by default the best choice for MH since the proc will occur more frequently if wielded in MH? (I'm 100% certain that it has a flat percental proc chance without an internal CD). If that is the case then Electrified Dagger would be eliminated as an option, leaving the combination Felstriker + Distracting Dagger + NS belt as the only option. Is that a correct train of thought?

The bold part makes me think you know nothing about how weapon speed normalisation works for daggers.

tl;didn't bother to write - use felstriker in MH.

If someone more patient wants to explain why, go ahead .

Thank you for the reply!

You are completely right. I do not know how that mechanic works. I figured that a 0.1s speed difference would not make enough difference to outweigh the fact that mainhanding Felstriker gives more frequent procs. Also Felstriker (1.7) seems way too slow for an OH dagger.

Had I known all the mechanics, I would not have turned to this thread.

[Youfie]

However, since Felstriker is 0.1s slower than Electrified Dagger but still has the same damage, isn't Felstriker by default the best choice for MH since the proc will occur more frequently if wielded in MH? (I'm 100% certain that it has a flat percental proc chance without an internal CD). If that is the case then Electrified Dagger would be eliminated as an option, leaving the combination Felstriker + Distracting Dagger + NS belt as the only option. Is that a correct train of thought?

The bold part makes me think you know nothing about how weapon speed normalisation works for daggers.

tl;didn't bother to write - use felstriker in MH.

If someone more patient wants to explain why, go ahead .

Thank you for the reply!

You are completely right. I do not know how that mechanic works. I figured that a 0.1s speed difference would not make enough difference to outweigh the fact that mainhanding Felstriker gives more frequent procs. Also Felstriker (1.7) seems way too slow for an OH dagger.

Had I known all the mechanics, I would not have turned to this thread.

Here you go buddy :

Felstriker isn't slower than Electrified Dagger, it's actually faster, since it hits every 1.7 seconds, versus 1.8 for Electrified Dagger.

The damage range of Fel Striker is *slightly* higher than Electrified Dagger's (54-101 > 53-100).

For abilities, speed in itself doesn't matter since Attack Power contribution is normalized, it means it'll be multiplied by the same number whether the weapon is 1.3 or 2.00 speed for instance, causing you to lose a little bit of damage on abilities if your weapon speed is slower than 1.7, and gaining a little if it's faster.
This factor is 1.7 for daggers and 2.4 for other 1-handers.
This means the only things that matters is the damage range, i.e. Felstriker > Electrified in MH.

Is it a bit more clear? Don't have time to add examples with figures and shit atm, but I hope tis helps.

Regarding Proc Watch, why doesn't it record Felstriker proc? I mean, you gain a buff when the dagger procs, right? It shows up in the combatlog and shit, doesn't it?

[Fyralix]

Yes, it shows up in the combat log as "You gain Felstriker" but when i open my procwatcher there is not row called "Felstriker" or anything close to it.

[Youfie]

Yes, it shows up in the combat log as "You gain Felstriker" but when i open my procwatcher there is not row called "Felstriker" or anything close to it.

Hum, maybe a typo in your ProcWatch configuration? I can't test it myself, but if any rogue can, feel free to do so and share it with us

[TaurenRogue]

In my opinion, the Arcanum of Rapidity is kinda shitty, and I'd love too to have your opinions about it guys.

Here's my understanding of the Arcanum of Rapidity :

In theory, it means +1%ish to white damage (and more poisons / procs & shit).

However, a 1.8 Weapon becomes 1.37 with SnD + 1% Libram (1.8 / (1.3 * 1.1)), while it hits every 1,38 second with SnD only : the difference is very small and should be unable to actually deliver more DPS in most situations :

After 10s attacking a mob for instance, you'll have 7,29 hits with SnD + Arcanum, and 7,22 with SnD. Which means each of your attack will be a *little* earlier, but won't actually make any difference for now, since you won't have any extra attacks from the speed bonus yet.

Using the same example, one should have to wait around 139s of fight for the SnD + Arcanum combination to yield one more hit than SnD only (100.663, so 100 hits, versus 99.667, so 99).

Which means if you get out of range of your target for just a moment before 139s of fight, the Arcanum will have granted you 0 DPS.

And even if it does grant you that, then you'd have to compare it with the constant DPS gain of the +8 Agility Arcanum, which might be superior even if these conditions are met, which leads me to think the Arcanum of Rapidity is bullshit.

Am I missing something?

Heres some math without SND, procs, dual wield etc, but trying to bring closer how haste works out on short fights...
http://i.imgur.com/MPBHLrw.jpg
30.000 seconds into the fight boss dies, haste gave 0 extra hits -> useless
31.000 seconds into the fight boss dies, haste gave 1 extra hit -> 13/12 = 1.08333 = 8.333% white dps boost
32.000 seconds into the fight boss dies, haste gave 0 extra hits -> useless

Fights are going to end on a random amount of seconds and miliseconds and if its a short fight the effect of haste is really random, and either brings an extra hit or it doesn't (13 hits vs 12 hits is a big deal). You can't control when the fight will end, and will the swing you started actually finish or be coc*blocked by an execute, but over time a haste user has a increasing chance of finishing a swing agility user never did.

In an extreme example if you have a 2.0 speed weapon and fight lasts 1.999 seconds 1% haste is the best enchant ever, if the same fight lasts 1.8 seconds haste is the worst enchant ever...

The results get more consistent with a faster weapon and a longer duration of the fight, but the effect of 1% haste is always there...

P.S.
If you have 1% haste on legs, 1% haste on head, and 7 agi on gloves then you are not minmaxing but slacking!