Youfie's Combat Daggers Spreadsheet

[Aslan]

Incalculating the fact that a boss has 315 def when you make the critcap conclusion? -0.6% crit, starting from your tooltip which already includes the crit from your own weaponskill additions

Yes, the ingame tooltip does take into account crit from +Skill, but it assumes a target the same level as the Player.
Hence my "trick" so that the in-game tooltip matches my Spreadsheet and the Attaack Table taking into account the correct crit value (against a 63) at the same time.

World first. /bow

[Soyoen]

I'm glad to see that the vanilla rogue community is thriving, you've done a solid job here mate

[Youfie]

Hey everyone!

It's been quite a while since the previous release of my Spreadsheet. I'm really sorry, I couldn't find time to work on it, I actually had trouble to play at all.

Anyway, I did work on my spreadsheet during the past few days. It's not finished yet, but I'll probably be able to release it to you guys tomorrow.

First of all a few comments on your past feedbacks :

2. Backstab crit-chance in Details sheet
For the backstab crit-chance (B24) you are taking the critchance from the Overview sheet +30%. In my opinion you should take the "real" crit-chance from Details sheet (M24) +30%.

I disagree with you that Backstab's critical strike chance should be taken from the auto-attack table : it would mean the critcap would affect Backstab's critchance as well as the auto-attack's, which is wrong.

However, you're right that Backstab critical strike chance shouldn't be taken from the "Overview" tab, because it is slightly off cause the Overview critical strike chance isn't exact due to my "trick".

The best thing to do to be 100% accurate is to use the Overview critical strike chance and modify it "back", i.e. doing my "trick" to it too when using it for Backstab's critical strike chance.

This is what I've done in this new version of my Spreadsheet, along with some other changes (see the Changelog below).

Regarding item stats, Blackmist Bracers indeed had the wrong Strength amount. However, I let Strength on them, even though they might not have some on Nostalrius, so that all the gear is consistent in terms of stats and is 1.12. However I've unlocked the "Gear List" tab (can't remember if I did if in my previous release, too lazy to check) so that everyone can try different stats on the items, especially players from the new PvE realm.

Regarding Blade Flurry and Adrenaline Rush, indeed they last 15 seconds and I modeled them with a 20s-duration . Fixed .

And below is the planned changelog for the soon-to-come new version of my spreadsheet :

Changelog - 1.2 :

New Features :

• Base stats for Orcs, Trolls & Undead Rogues added ;

• You can now choose Windfury as a temporary weapon enchantment, and Grace of Air & Strength of Earth totems as raid buffs ;

• Crusader enchantment added (it causes an issue with the Next-Stat section though, see "Known Issues") ;

• Thistle Tea added: a very small glitch remains with it, along with some other effects (see "Known Issues"). It is modeled as a cooldown and the spreadsheet assumes you drink one as often as possible : the shorter the fight, the higher its DPS (just like BF & AR) : a 1-second fight gives unrealistic results (as if you instantly spent the 100 Energy) ; it is assumed that you always get full benefit out of it (i.e. 100 Energy), and all the Energy is assumed to be used on Backstab ;

• You can know equip a Dagger or a Sword in off-hand: this should be useful to Rogues who can get their hands on a Sword vastly superior to the off-hand Daggers they have access to, and wonder if they could use it in off-hand, despite losing 5% crit on their off-hand auto-attacks, especially Human Dagger Rogues. As a result, MH & OH now have a separate auto-attack table in the Details tab, and applying an Elemental Sharpening Stone on your weapon will now be displayed in these tables (it wasn’t the case until now, and it was intended) ;

• AQ20 Handbook of Backstab IX added (considered a buff so that you can choose to use it or not) ;

• You can now choose between talented and untalented versions of Blessing of Might, Battle Shout & Gift of the Wild, and use ranks available from AQ20 or not - this also goes for the newly added Grace of Air & Strength of Earth buffs as well as Windfury Totem ;

• Poisons and magical procs (e.g. DMC:M) now take into account your chance to score a critical strike with spells (base chance = 0,00%), and are thus affected by buffs affecting it ;

• Slip'kik's Savvy +3% to crit with spells buff added.


Bug Fixes :

• Fixed a (huge) error from me regarding Blade Flurry and Adrenaline Rush: they now have a 15-second duration, as they always should have, rather than a 20-second one ;

• Fixed a glitch that caused the 8/8 Bloodfang proc to use DMC:M PPM for the OH PPM instead of the PPM set for the proc, and a similar bug causing the Shadowcraft / Darkmantle proc to use BF 8/8 PPM for MH and DMC:M PPM for OH (since all of these were set at 1 PPM by default, it didn't change anything at all unless you tried custom PPMs for these effects) ;

• The Songflower Serenade (new name of the improper "Felwood Buff") now also increases Strength and Agility by 15, as it always should have ;

• Fixed a bug that caused Elemental Sharpening Stones to bypass the crit cap mechanism and allowed one to gain some DPS on their auto-attacks even after being crit capped (however they still grant you some DPS when applied to your MH after reaching the crit cap, as intended, because of Backstab) ;

• Fixed an oversight that prevented Backstab from being crit capped (not in the same way auto-attacks are though, of course) and allowed one to gain DPS from having more than 100% chance to crit with it (yes, it is possible with the proper gear and buffs) ;

• Fixed an oversight that caused Backstab critical strike chance to ignore the slight loss of crit due to the target being level 63 : this is now fixed and it should now always be equal to the one displayed in the attack-table for your MH + 30%, unless you’re crit-capped for your MH auto-attacks ;

• Fixed an oversight regarding the 3/8 Bloodfang bonus : it was calculated properly in the Details tab but wasn't added to the "Normal" DPS ;

• When having more than 315 Weapon Skill, the Dodge chance reduction wasn’t calculated properly : it now is ;

• Fixed a typo with Blackmist Bracers stats (wrong amount of Strength) ;

• Arathi Basin reputation set 3-piece 1% critical strike bonus was missing, and has been added.


Gear changes :

• Mongoose Boots added to the gear list ;

• Band of Unnatural Forces added to the gear list ;

• Stormrage's Talisman of Seething added to the gear list ;

• Kiss of the Spider added to the gear list ; it wasn’t really a priority to model, but since it's pretty easy to do so because it just basically turns your Blade Flurry into a +44% Haste effect (if you assume both effects are always used at the same time, which they should since they have the exact same cooldown and duration and scale with each other due to haste effects being multiplicative), I’ve done it right away.
Please note that the DPS gain listed in the KotS section (Details tab) isn’t the actual Average damage gain from KotS, it’s the Blade Flurry damage gain from it (then, depending on the length of the fight, BF DPS is averaged etc., so the total Average DPS section is still accurate) ;

• Some PvP items from WSG / AB / AV have been renamed to be more consistent with each other and easily identifiable for both factions.


Miscellaneous :

• Dire Maul 200 AP buff renamed to Fengus' Ferocity (instead of "DM Buff") ;

• Felwood +15 All Stats & +5% crit buff renamed to Songflower Serenade (instead of "Felwood Buff") ;

• "Hakkar's Head" buff is now known as Hakkar's Heart, as it always should have ;

• You can now choose between Juju Power & Elixir of the Giants, rather than being forced to use Juju Power or nothing ;

• You can now choose between Elixir of the Mongoose & Elixir of Greater Agility, rather than being forced to use Elixir of the Mongoose or nothing ;

• The formula for the Crit in the Auto-attack table was slightly modified because it seemed I was previously deducting crit to account for the Weapon Skill / Defense Difference twice ;

• Juju Flurry added to the « raid buffs » section. It isn’t supported yet though. I only added it because I was lacking one buff for everything to look symetrical and shit. I don’t know if I’ll script it in the near future, since it’s a bit of a pain in the ass, with its duration being different from Blade Flurry etc. (maybe when I’ll get down to the trinkets).

Regarding Crusader :
I've had quite a LOT of trouble with this little fucker. Not to actually calculate its dps gain, but to add it to the rest of the DPS. You know, since I use Excel's Sensitivity Analysis tool to model Crusader, with the final Normal / BF / AR DPS output being one of the hypothesis, when I tried to add the results to the said Normal / BF / AR DPS, Excel wouldn't do it cause it was creating an infinite loop - which kinda makes sense.

Even when activating the iterative calculations in Excel Settings, numbers would get fucked up in the end for some reason when selecting / deselecting Crusader several times, not to mention it would have required you to do the same in your own Excel, and it was kinda the kind of things I don't wanna do (you know, "keep it simple and user-friendly" is my motto for this spreadsheet).

Anyway, I found a way to add Crusader DPS in the end, BUT, sadly, it fucks up the "Next Stat" section. I don't really know why, I guess it's because this section also uses a Sensitivity Analysis or whatever. Despite my efforts, I couldn't find a better way to put things .

==> As a result, whenever you have a Crusader enchantment on either hand, just disregard the "Next Stat" & "Stat Equivalence" sections, they're wrong. They are fine once you switch back to another enchant though.

It's not that big of a deal since +15 Agility is supposed to be better anyway (at least the way I modeled Crusader), but I would have liked to get everything to work properly you know, just for the sake of it .


And regarding Windfury (I basically had the same issues @ infinite loop with it), currently it is the only proc that takes into account the fact that it could proc off Hand of Justice. In my next version, all procs will be the same, and will take into account HoJ / WF.

This will become mandatory now that we have Windfury modeled, since it can change things quite a lot.
However, WF cannot currently proc off 'itself', and I haven't found a way to model this shit properly and accurately, which is annoying .


Anyway, I apologize for the wait and I'm sorry couldn't add some of the features some of you guys asked from me. They'll come later .


You thoughts and suggestions are all welcome before my next release, as well as some more feedbacks, although I cannot guarantee I could take them into account for the very next release.


Regards,


Youfie

[Adryaa]

<3

[Proven]

Hello everyone!

This post isn’t really about the spreadsheet, but the theorycrafting community in general. Expect at detailed feedback after the release of v1.2 .

/emo
First of all, you really don't have to say sorry for not responding earlier. I can understand if you maybe feel a bit of pressure because of the overwhelmingly positive feedback regarding your first release and you didn’t want to let anyone down. It’s very clear to me that this isn’t the case and you delivered once again (and how you did!).

Sure, there may be lurkers not taking part in the discussion and just waiting for the next release. But these are also the kind of people not really understanding the works behind it and just want to plug in their gear and click play. However for most of us in this thread, theorycrafting outside the game is just as important as actually playing. This also means that it is fun for us, and that’s the environment good feedbackloops and ideas can actually happen. And it should stay this way!
/emo

I did some research in the last weeks and really want to let you all know about it! What I’m doing here is mainly backing up the used formulas / assumptions with actual proof.

1. Sources for Weaponskill, Defense, Base-Miss-Chance, the One-Roll / Two-Roll Theory and the Attack Table in general. These values further get backed up by the EJ thread linked below.

Weaponskill: http://wow.gamepedia.com/index.php?titl ... did=382309
AttackTable: http://wow.gamepedia.com/index.php?titl ... did=238405
Dual Wield: http://wow.gamepedia.com/index.php?titl ... did=423506
Critical Chance: http://wow.gamepedia.com/index.php?titl ... did=349108
PPM: http://wow.gamepedia.com/index.php?titl ... did=419536

These sources are interesting for any melee character and not just rogues!

2. The old EJ thread with the first real open discussion about Combat-Daggers. I even found the original spreadsheet. Although it’s v1.15, and the last version Chalon was still a part of it was v1.14 afaik. If you want a download link I'll be happy to provide it.

Original EJ thread: http://forums.elitistjerks.com/forums/t ... ent=172977
Some more discussion on two-roll system (with data): http://web.archive.org/web/200702111200 ... hp?id=9330

It really had me laughing irl when I saw one of the first responses was about talented / untalented modeling of buffs. Now that’s what I call a déja-vu! It’s also really cool to see that a lot of the points we’re discussing now were basically the same in that thread. It really is worth a read!

I feel that every minute invested in providing you with feedback / sources is worth it. And I’m providing you with it because my math, excel and design skills are nowhere near anything you deliver. /bow

Also I think you have been in a very close connection to this server for a very long time (beta stages, contact with admins etc.).

I’m pretty sure you know all about the sources I linked but I feel there is a lot of people who don’t (see the 27% base-miss chance coming up every now and then). I’m also not the kind of person holding back information for personal benefits.

Have a nice evening all!

Proven

[Youfie]

Hey,

Thank you for the kind words and your useful links.

Regarding Specials being on a 2-roll system, this is indeed something I will have to take care of one way or another (assuming it works correctly on Nostalrius, which I'm not sure of, but still).

I wasn't really in a rush to do it since it's a lot easier to assume Backstab is handled like auto-attacks @ 1-roll system. I'll add to gather more information on this matter and add it to my list I guess , shouldn't make that big of a difference, but just for the sake of it!

I was also planning to add an option / button to allow the user to choose the base miss / dodge rate they want to use, i.e. letting them choose between the 24.6% or 27% theories, since we don't really know accurately which one is correct on Nostalrius.

Didn't have enough time, but I might do that in the future, sorry Darkfade .

Anyway, here's Youfie's Combat Daggers Spreadsheet - 1.2
EDIT : unarchived version of the file, since it seems to cause trouble to some people. Don't try to read it with Mediafire built-in Excel reader, download it first :p.

My original post was edited to include this version and its changelog, which is the same as stated above :

New Features :

• Base stats for Orcs, Trolls & Undead Rogues added ;

• You can now choose Windfury as a temporary weapon enchantment, and Grace of Air & Strength of Earth totems as raid buffs ;

• Crusader enchantment added (it causes an issue with the Next-Stat section though, see "Known Issues") ;

• Thistle Tea added: a very small glitch remains with it, along with some other effects (see "Known Issues"). It is modeled as a cooldown and the spreadsheet assumes you drink one as often as possible : the shorter the fight, the higher its DPS (just like BF & AR) : a 1-second fight gives unrealistic results (as if you instantly spent the 100 Energy) ; it is assumed that you always get full benefit out of it (i.e. 100 Energy), and all the Energy is assumed to be used on Backstab ;

• You can know equip a Dagger or a Sword in off-hand: this should be useful to Rogues who can get their hands on a Sword vastly superior to the off-hand Daggers they have access to, and wonder if they could use it in off-hand, despite losing 5% crit on their off-hand auto-attacks, especially Human Dagger Rogues. As a result, MH & OH now have a separate auto-attack table in the Details tab, and applying an Elemental Sharpening Stone on your weapon will now be displayed in these tables (it wasn’t the case until now, and it was intended) ;

• AQ20 Handbook of Backstab IX added (considered a buff so that you can choose to use it or not) ;

• You can now choose between talented and untalented versions of Blessing of Might, Battle Shout & Gift of the Wild, and use ranks available from AQ20 or not - this also goes for the newly added Grace of Air & Strength of Earth buffs as well as Windfury Totem ;

• Poisons and magical procs (e.g. DMC:M) now take into account your chance to score a critical strike with spells (base chance = 0,00%), and are thus affected by buffs affecting it ;

• Slip'kik's Savvy +3% to crit with spells buff added.


Bug Fixes :

• Fixed a (huge) error from me regarding Blade Flurry and Adrenaline Rush: they now have a 15-second duration, as they always should have, rather than a 20-second one ;

• Fixed a glitch that caused the 8/8 Bloodfang proc to use DMC:M PPM for the OH PPM instead of the PPM set for the proc, and a similar bug causing the Shadowcraft / Darkmantle proc to use BF 8/8 PPM for MH and DMC:M PPM for OH (since all of these were set at 1 PPM by default, it didn't change anything at all unless you tried custom PPMs for these effects) ;

• The Songflower Serenade (new name of the improper "Felwood Buff") now also increases Strength and Agility by 15, as it always should have ;

• Fixed a bug that caused Elemental Sharpening Stones to bypass the crit cap mechanism and allowed one to gain some DPS on their auto-attacks even after being crit capped (however they still grant you some DPS when applied to your MH after reaching the crit cap, as intended, because of Backstab) ;

• Fixed an oversight that prevented Backstab from being crit capped (not in the same way auto-attacks are though, of course) and allowed one to gain DPS from having more than 100% chance to crit with it (yes, it is possible with the proper gear and buffs) ;

• Fixed an oversight that caused Backstab critical strike chance to ignore the slight loss of crit due to the target being level 63 : this is now fixed and it should now always be equal to the one displayed in the attack-table for your MH + 30%, unless you’re crit-capped for your MH auto-attacks ;

• Fixed an oversight regarding the 3/8 Bloodfang bonus : it was calculated properly in the Details tab but wasn't added to the "Normal" DPS ;

• When having more than 315 Weapon Skill, the Dodge chance reduction wasn’t calculated properly : it now is ;

• Fixed a typo with Blackmist Bracers stats (wrong amount of Strength) ;

• Arathi Basin reputation set 3-piece 1% critical strike bonus was missing, and has been added.


Gear changes :

• Mongoose Boots added to the gear list ;

• Band of Unnatural Forces added to the gear list ;

• Stormrage's Talisman of Seething added to the gear list ;

• Kiss of the Spider added to the gear list ; it wasn’t really a priority to model, but since it's pretty easy to do so because it just basically turns your Blade Flurry into a +44% Haste effect (if you assume both effects are always used at the same time, which they should since they have the exact same cooldown and duration and scale with each other due to haste effects being multiplicative), I’ve done it right away.
Please note that the DPS gain listed in the KotS section (Details tab) isn’t the actual Average damage gain from KotS, it’s the Blade Flurry damage gain from it (then, depending on the length of the fight, BF DPS is averaged etc., so the total Average DPS section is still accurate) ;

• Some PvP items from WSG / AB / AV have been renamed to be more consistent with each other and easily identifiable for both factions.


Miscellaneous :

• Dire Maul 200 AP buff renamed to Fengus' Ferocity (instead of "DM Buff") ;

• Felwood +15 All Stats & +5% crit buff renamed to Songflower Serenade (instead of "Felwood Buff") ;

• "Hakkar's Head" buff is now known as Hakkar's Heart, as it always should have ;

• You can now choose between Juju Power & Elixir of the Giants, rather than being forced to use Juju Power or nothing ;

• You can now choose between Elixir of the Mongoose & Elixir of Greater Agility, rather than being forced to use Elixir of the Mongoose or nothing ;

• The formula for the Crit in the Auto-attack table was slightly modified because it seemed I was previously deducting crit to account for the Weapon Skill / Defense Difference twice ;

• Juju Flurry added to the « raid buffs » section. It isn’t supported yet though. I only added it because I was lacking one buff for everything to look symetrical and shit. I don’t know if I’ll script it in the near future, since it’s a bit of a pain in the ass, with its duration being different from Blade Flurry etc. (maybe when I’ll get down to the trinkets).

Thanks to everyone who provided with feedbacks and took time to play with my spreadsheet to find where I screwed up, and thank you to those who will do it once again with this version .


Regards,


Youfie.

[Slicy]

Bump / Requesting sticky

Awesome changes.

"• Juju Flurry added to the « raid buffs » section. It isn’t supported yet though. I only added it because I was lacking one buff for everything to look symetrical and shit. I don’t know if I’ll script it in the near future, since it’s a bit of a pain in the ass, with its duration being different from Blade Flurry etc. (maybe when I’ll get down to the trinkets)."

- What about 1% AS on Helm/Legs as an option ? As silly as it seems I do think it can be efficient. Just don't have the data to back that up
Not sure if it remains a pain in the ass to add since there is no duration ?

- Which value did you chose for 8/8 BF proc rate ?
If I understood correctly in Details, you chose 1 PPM right ?
I've read different things about it but the value coming frequently seems to be at least 2% and without internal CD. I believe we're tossing more than 50 attacks in 1 minute if you take SnD and specials into account (+ the fact it can probably proc from dodges/misses/etc. too ofc).
The proc rate even appears to be way higher than that currently on Nostalrius. Can't check it myself but if someone can, please do.
This can be critical if it is so high that 8/8 yields better results than what's supposed to be currently BiS.

[Youfie]

Bump / Requesting sticky

Awesome changes.

"• Juju Flurry added to the « raid buffs » section. It isn’t supported yet though. I only added it because I was lacking one buff for everything to look symetrical and shit. I don’t know if I’ll script it in the near future, since it’s a bit of a pain in the ass, with its duration being different from Blade Flurry etc. (maybe when I’ll get down to the trinkets)."

- What about 1% AS on Helm/Legs as an option ? As silly as it seems I do think it can be efficient. Just don't have the data to back that up
Not sure if it remains a pain in the ass to add since there is no duration ?

- Which value did you chose for 8/8 BF proc rate ?
If I understood correctly in Details, you chose 1 PPM right ?
I've read different things about it but the value coming frequently seems to be at least 2% and without internal CD. I believe we're tossing more than 50 attacks in 1 minute if you take SnD and specials into account (+ the fact it can probably proc from dodges/misses/etc. too ofc).
The proc rate even appears to be way higher than that currently on Nostalrius. Can't check it myself but if someone can, please do.
This can be critical if it is so high that 8/8 yields better results than what's supposed to be currently BiS.

Hey,

The 1% Attack Speed on Helm / Legs should be really easy to add actually. It shouldn't take more than a few seconds, since it just turns your base Haste to 31,3% / 32,613%, up from +30% from just SnD.

-> So I just added it to the sheet, and removed the +8 Strength on Head / Legs btw, since there is no way they can ever be better than +8 Agility - it was a bit pointless from me to add this enchant in the first place!

And you're right, in theory the +1% Attack Speed is indeed better than +8 Agility with my current gear. The margin is very small (gets better with two of them), but it IS better indeed.

However, the thing is you gotta keep in mindt that you might never actually benefit from the theoretical DPS gain from your two +1% Attack Speed enchants, since they basically grant you an extra swing only if you stay long enough in melee range for it to actually happen, you know?

Too lazy to throw out numbers, I think I've done it before on some other thread, but you get the idea : depending on your weapon speed, you can calculate after which fight duration the +AS lib ram will have granted you an additional swing, but if you leave melee range for even 0,01 seconds before this, you just have 0 benefit from it, while a +8 Agility enchant will have granted you a sustained DPS gain from swing one.


Regarding Bloodfang 8/8: I indeed used a 1 PPM, however I used the Vanilla definition of the PPM mechanism.

PPM in Vanilla doesn't mean it has an internal cooldown or anything.
In Vanilla, a proc with 1 PPM just means :
"If you auto-attack your target for 60 seconds, and you get 0 misses / dodges / parries, you will have, on average, 1 proc."

If you had a weapon with a speed of 60,00, it would mean a 100% chance to have a proc.

So basically, PPM just is a flat proc-rate, that changes with your weapon speed (disregarding haste ofc).

This means with 8/8 BF @ 1 PPM (default model on my spreadsheet), and a 1.8 MH / 1.6 OH, you have a 3% proc chance on MH Swings / Backstabs & 2,67% on OH swings.

And no internal CD.

For us Dagger Rogues it's simply impossible that the loss of ACLG alone can be counterweighted by the sole 8/8 proc. The questions might remain for Swords Rogues I guess.

Apparently, Chalon back in 2006 modeled it as a 1 PPM enchant too (might be wrong anyway, of course) : http://forums.elitistjerks.com/forums/t ... t-daggers/

[Slicy]

Ah that's exactly what I was wondering concerning 1% AS : after how many seconds meleeing a boss would it become better than 8 agi. Will do my own maths using the spreadsheet with 1% and then with 2% AS to see at which point it can get better than 8 agi / 2x8 agi. I doubt there are enough tank and spank boss fights reaching that length to make it worth though.
And 28 AP is closer and closer anyways

As for 8/8 BF, I totally agree with the 1 PPM as it seems to be the most blizzlike value in the few reliable threads, meaning around 2% and on wards depending on weap speed, but what I'm wondering is if anyone can verify this PPM atm (a lot of proc related mechanism seem to be different from retail here).

[Youfie]

Ah that's exactly what I was wondering concerning 1% AS : after how many seconds meleeing a boss would it become better than 8 agi. Will do my own maths using the spreadsheet with 1% and then with 2% AS to see at which point it can get better than 8 agi / 2x8 agi. I doubt there are enough tank and spank boss fights reaching that length to make it worth though.
And 28 AP is closer and closer anyways

As for 8/8 BF, I totally agree with the 1 PPM as it seems to be the most blizzlike value in the few reliable threads, meaning around 2% and on wards depending on weap speed, but what I'm wondering is if anyone can verify this PPM atm (a lot of proc related mechanism seem to be different from retail here).

Well we need someone with 8/8, Procwatch and a HPal friend willing to waste like hours dueling and spamming Flash of Light .