Youfie's Combat Daggers Spreadsheet

[Solmyr]

Regarding Bloodfang 8/8: I indeed used a 1 PPM, however I used the Vanilla definition of the PPM mechanism.

PPM in Vanilla doesn't mean it has an internal cooldown or anything.
In Vanilla, a proc with 1 PPM just means :
"If you auto-attack your target for 60 seconds, and you get 0 misses / dodges / parries, you will have, on average, 1 proc.

If you had a weapon with a speed of 60,00, it would mean a 100% chance to have a proc.

So basically, PPM just is a flat proc-rate, that changes with your weapon speed (disregarding haste ofc).

This means with 8/8 BF @ 1 PPM (default model on my spreadsheet), and a 1.8 MH / 1.6 OH, you have a 3% proc chance on MH Swings / Backstabs & 2,67% on OH swings.

And no internal CD.

For us Dagger Rogues it's simply impossible that the loss of ACLG alone can be counterweighted by the sole 8/8 proc. The questions might remain for Swords Rogues I guess.

Apparently, Chalon back in 2006 modeled it as a 1 PPM enchant too (might be wrong anyway, of course) : http://forums.elitistjerks.com/forums/t ... t-daggers/

Even with the Vanilla definition of PPM, which is indeed what PPM means (internal cooldown nonsense only came along much later), there is a significant difference between PPM and % chance to proc, namely that weapon speed is a factor with the latter.

If you assume 8/8 BF works with a PPM mechanic, it becomes very easy to calculate the proc dps for any and all possible specs and weapon combinations, regardless of the actual PPM coefficient. All you need to do is test BF with one weapon set, calculate the PPM (in your case try to validate the 1 PPM assumption) and then weigh the proc dps increase against the loss of stats from gear.

I posit that such a methodology is flawed as it ignores the possibility that 8/8 BF is not PPM, but a % proc chance. The only way to know for certain is to perform extensive testing of the proc with two weapon sets with the maximum possible variations in attack speed. Then, by comparing the results, it can be confirmed which of the two proc mechanics governs 8/8 BF. This validation is important because by preliminary estimates 8/8 BF is currently very strong for sword rogues, so strong that if the proc is a % chance it might be BiS for dagger rogues as well, given the amount of procs they would get.

P.S. Yes you lose ACLG, but guess what, this is not your only source of dagger skill . Think outside the box, you indoctrinated bastards .

[Youfie]

Regarding Bloodfang 8/8: I indeed used a 1 PPM, however I used the Vanilla definition of the PPM mechanism.

PPM in Vanilla doesn't mean it has an internal cooldown or anything.
In Vanilla, a proc with 1 PPM just means :
"If you auto-attack your target for 60 seconds, and you get 0 misses / dodges / parries, you will have, on average, 1 proc.

If you had a weapon with a speed of 60,00, it would mean a 100% chance to have a proc.

So basically, PPM just is a flat proc-rate, that changes with your weapon speed (disregarding haste ofc).

This means with 8/8 BF @ 1 PPM (default model on my spreadsheet), and a 1.8 MH / 1.6 OH, you have a 3% proc chance on MH Swings / Backstabs & 2,67% on OH swings.

And no internal CD.

For us Dagger Rogues it's simply impossible that the loss of ACLG alone can be counterweighted by the sole 8/8 proc. The questions might remain for Swords Rogues I guess.

Apparently, Chalon back in 2006 modeled it as a 1 PPM enchant too (might be wrong anyway, of course) : http://forums.elitistjerks.com/forums/t ... t-daggers/

Even with the Vanilla definition of PPM, which is indeed what PPM means (internal cooldown nonsense only came along much later), there is a significant difference between PPM and % chance to proc, namely that weapon speed is a factor with the latter.

If you assume 8/8 BF works with a PPM mechanic, it becomes very easy to calculate the proc dps for any and all possible specs and weapon combinations, regardless of the actual PPM coefficient. All you need to do is test BF with one weapon set, calculate the PPM (in your case try to validate the 1 PPM assumption) and then weigh the proc dps increase against the loss of stats from gear.

I posit that such a methodology is flawed as it ignores the possibility that 8/8 BF is not PPM, but a % proc chance. The only way to know for certain is to perform extensive testing of the proc with two weapon sets with the maximum possible variations in attack speed. Then, by comparing the results, it can be confirmed which of the two proc mechanics governs 8/8 BF. This validation is important because by preliminary estimates 8/8 BF is currently very strong for sword rogues, so strong that if the proc is a % chance it might be BiS for dagger rogues as well, given the amount of procs they would get.

P.S. Yes you lose ACLG, but guess what, this is not your only source of dagger skill . Think outside the box, you indoctrinated bastards .

Of course, 8/8 might be a fixed proc chance. If this is proves to be true (and intended), I'll update my spreadsheet accordingly.

Regarding the other sources of Dagger Skill, well be it from ACLG or Mugger's, both prevent you from being 8/8, the only alternatives being DM:W OH & our 2/2 Talent at the moment.

Thanks to the talent, ACLG / Mugger's aren't worth as much as they were on retail before our talent revamp, but those 5 skill points are still worth a bunch of DPS .

Were you thinking of something else?

[Youfie]

Using my own Spreadsheet, with a post-BWL BiS setup, Alliance buffs and everything else except Songflower Serenade (and Hakkar's Heart ofc), I'm sitting at 741,93 DPS on a 20% armor target.
(Those missing buffs should work even more in favor of the "non-8/8 option", but just to stay below crit cap.)

Replacing the non-T2 pieces to T2 to get 8/8, I have 719,25 DPS, assuming a 1 PPM 8/8 Proc.

That's almost a 23 DPS difference, with the 8/8 being already being worth around 9 DPS on average.

Having 8/8 on par with the "regular" BiS-list would require the 8/8 proc to be worth around 32 DPS in this setup (numbers may vary depending on buffs & shit).

30+ average DPS from 8/8 alone is basically the numbers I have from using a 3 PPM proc chance (haven't used the excel analysis tool properly, just by having a look), i.e. 9,00% & 8,00% (!) proc chances on MH & OH, respectively.

Don't know if I overlooked something, but even if the proc turns out to be a flat proc chance, it would need to be above 8% or something similar to beat up R10 Shoulders / Helm, ACLG, BotSF.

I find those numbers rather high to be realistic, don't you?

Any thoughts are welcome

[Solmyr]

Using my own Spreadsheet, with a post-BWL BiS setup, Alliance buffs and everything else except Songflower Serenade (and Hakkar's Heart ofc), I'm sitting at 741,93 DPS on a 20% armor target.
(Those missing buffs should work even more in favor of the "non-8/8 option", but just to stay below crit cap.)

Replacing the non-T2 pieces to T2 to get 8/8, I have 719,25 DPS, assuming a 1 PPM 8/8 Proc.

That's almost a 23 DPS difference, with the 8/8 being already being worth around 9 DPS on average.

Having 8/8 on par with the "regular" BiS-list would require the 8/8 proc to be worth around 32 DPS in this setup (numbers may vary depending on buffs & shit).

30+ average DPS from 8/8 alone is basically the numbers I have from using a 3 PPM proc chance (haven't used the excel analysis tool properly, just by having a look), i.e. 9,00% & 8,00% (!) proc chances on MH & OH, respectively.

Don't know if I overlooked something, but even if the proc turns out to be a flat proc chance, it would need to be above 8% or something similar to beat up R10 Shoulders / Helm, ACLG, BotSF.

I find those numbers rather high to be realistic, don't you?

Any thoughts are welcome

Workday ending so I'll be short.

1. Weapon skill - provided you are unable to equip ACLG or Muggers, Distracting dagger is BiS offhand, beating CHT by a significant margin.

2. When you calculated how much 8/8 BF would need to proc to make up for the lost dps of the offpieces, did you account for equipping Distracting dagger? Do so and then calculate the total difference. The required proc % that will result will be lower than your current 8-9% estimate.

3. Procs provide other benefits - procs can proc off each other. That includes BF proccing of itself, proccing Vis'kag (obviously not relevant for daggers, just mentioning tho). I wouldn't be surprised if other things can proc from it, such as Sword spec, HoJ, windfury ... testing required.

4. And now for the grand finale ... what if I told you BF proc chance on Nostalrius is almost as high as you suspect it needs to be to make up for the offpieces loss? If it was a non-brainer decision, would I be bothering myself with it?

P.S. I am ignoring any discussion of PvP items as they are not relevant to my character. Those who deal with that can calculate for them. Not sorry for laziness, one must be utalitarian .

[Youfie]

Thanks for your answer .

1. Weapon skill - provided you are unable to equip ACLG or Muggers, Distracting dagger is BiS offhand, beating CHT by a significant margin.

I fully agree with that statement . This is indeed something I hadn't thought of. ACLG + CHT remains superior, but the DM:W OH is indeed superior to CHT if you don't have ACLG!

2. When you calculated how much 8/8 BF would need to proc to make up for the lost dps of the offpieces, did you account for equipping Distracting dagger? Do so and then calculate the total difference. The required proc % that will result will be lower than your current 8-9% estimate.

With 8/8 and Distracting instead of CHT, I get 731,26, up from 719,25, this is indeed a huge boost in favor of the 8/8 proc.

With this setup, there's "only" 10-11 DPS difference with the initial 741,93 DPS setup, and the proc would need about 2 PPM to be on par with the ACLG / BotSF / R10 setup (exactly 740,31 DPS with 2 PPM on Bloodfang).

2 PPM in this case being 6% on MH & 4,33% on OH.

The gap is far smaller, I guess it all comes down to the procrate, and it could be, at best, equivalent with the typical ACLG setup.

3. Procs provide other benefits - procs can proc off each other. That includes BF proccing of itself, proccing Vis'kag (obviously not relevant for daggers, just mentioning tho). I wouldn't be surprised if other things can proc from it, such as Sword spec, HoJ, windfury ... testing required.

Yeah, procs being considered yellow abilities, I don't know of proc'd abilities procing themselves, but they should at least be able to proc off the regular HoJ / WF / Sword Spec I guess.

I haven't finished to modify my spreadsheet to take into procs off procs, and that's indeed something that could boost a little the BF proc. I don't see it improving the BF proc by a *huge* value though. Just a rule of thumb as of now, but I guess I'll have to do the maths before making such statements !

4. And now for the grand finale ... what if I told you BF proc chance on Nostalrius is almost as high as you suspect it needs to be to make up for the offpieces loss? If it was a non-brainer decision, would I be bothering myself with it?

Well, I don't know how BF currently works on Nostalrius, but all in all it's not really relevant to me, cause we have no idea if it's bugged or not.

I understand some players who currently have access to 8/8 BF might want to know what option, given the current state of the proc, would work out best for them, and it seems to be your case.

But I'd rather work on how it *should* work than how it currently does - which will hopefully someday be the same thing! Just like I don't want to bother taking into account the fact that dodges / misses / parries & shit can proc Chance on Hit effects on Nostalrius. I just hope it will get fixed, and base my calculations on a Blizz-like environment .

[rekc]

Youfie, I'm just curious on how you feel about the DFB/CHT/Perdtions debate.

Some say that fully raid buffed and BIS that DFB MH becomes better than Perditions because of the scaling Agi.

Some say that DFB is a better OH than CHT because of scaling agi.

Some say that DFB/CHT is the best combo.

Most people say that Perditions/CHT is the current best wep combo.

What do you think?

[Youfie]

Well, altough I use rules of thumbs from time to time to approximate things very minor or very hard to model any other way, I don't feel anything about the DFB / PB / CHT debate, I just draw conclusions from my Spreadsheet, which I try to have as accurate as possible . If someone points out a mistake in the way I model DPS I'd be happy to change my mind!

Regarding DFB vs PB as a MH debate, my spreadsheet indeeds shows that Dragonfang is better than Perdition's as a MH, but only if you're below the crit cap. Once you reach it, then Perdition's comes ahead - altough it seems to be by a smaller margin than the one between DFB and PB before crit rate.

Regarding DFB vs CHT as a OH, CHT beats DFB by a small margin (about 1 DPS in BiS & buffs & shit, roughly).

So yeah, DFB + CHT is BiS, but only before crit cap.

[Vices]

Well, altough I use rules of thumbs from time to time to approximate things very minor or very hard to model any other way, I don't feel anything about the DFB / PB / CHT debate, I just draw conclusions from my Spreadsheet, which I try to have as accurate as possible . If someone points out a mistake in the way I model DPS I'd be happy to change my mind!

Regarding DFB vs PB as a MH debate, my spreadsheet indeeds shows that Dragonfang is better than Perdition's as a MH, but only if you're below the crit cap. Once you reach it, then Perdition's comes ahead - altough it seems to be by a smaller margin than the one between DFB and PB before crit rate.

Regarding DFB vs CHT as a OH, CHT beats DFB by a small margin (about 1 DPS in BiS & buffs & shit, roughly).

So yeah, DFB + CHT is BiS, but only before crit cap.

Did you include ZG buff in these calculations?

[Youfie]

Yes, I include Hakkar's buff. It makes the difference between DFB & CHT very small in OH (inferior to 1 DPS on a 20% armor target).
However I don't include Songflower Serenade, since it makes you go beyond critcap, in which case Perdition's comes ahead.

[Setup]

I'd be very interested to see an estimate on the damage gap between a BIS AQ40 sword rogue vs. a BIS AQ40 dagger rogue.