Nostalrius Begins - Quality wow vanilla realm (1.12)

For a combat dagger rogue in PvE with not GREAT gear (MC gear) where does the darkmoon card fit in between Hand of Justice and Blackhands Breath?

DMC + HoJ
DMC + Blackhands
HoJ + Blackhands

What is best here? >_<

Did DMC have a ppm or not? Personally I would take crit > ppm burst any day as crits have no limit.
But then again 2% crit is around 1.96~ crits more / minute (with weapon speeds of 1.4-1.8 = 98 hits per minute with SnD up). With HoJ that's about the same on average (from 98 hits only 2-3 get added totalling 100~ hits / minute).

Comparing these:
Average crit is + 100~ dmg. (depending on daggers)
Average DMC procc is + 250~ dmg.

According to http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=19289#wh-comments DMC doesn't have a ppm limit thus it would be superior to BB on a dagger build.

Correct me if I missed something, been awhile since I theorycrafted ^^

EDIT: fixed for daggers, brainfart made me think of sword build ><

I'll make it simple for you.

The trinket should* have a proc chance of 1.5%. With that proc chance the trinket is worse than either BB or HoJ.

*if the chance is higher it is a bug and should be reported and fixed.

Maelstrom is strictly a pvp trinket.

Solmyr wrote:I'll make it simple for you.

The trinket should* have a proc chance of 1.5%. With that proc chance the trinket is worse than either BB or HoJ.

*if the chance is higher it is a bug and should be reported and fixed.

If you go by old wowwiki yes:

"This trinket has about 1.5% proc chance, and it procs from every melee strike, including feral attacks (making this very useful for feral Druids) and free strikes. It is known to crit and may be effected by +spell damage(hits over 300 have occurred on non-vunerable targets), and can be resisted normally as nature damage, it can also hit for 1000-1400 when the target is vulnerable to nature, in BWL for example. Depending on weapon speed, it can add between 1 to 3 DPS (and sometimes higher), on average.

It is useful as a damage trinket in high-end raids, in PvP and PvE solo. "
http://wowwiki.wikia.com/Darkmoon_Card: ... did=368615


If you look at old web archives it's more questionable what the procrate really is, especially considering 1-3DPS represents 3 to 8agility. Is it reasonable for such a trinket to represent such value considering the time it was implemented into the game? Let's look at some other conflicting messages:

"Proc's in Shaman Ghost Wolf.
It seems to Proc a fair amount for me.
I have both Heroism and Maelstrom, I'm happy with both right now. "


"The card seems to proc only on hits of the mainhand weapon including specials.
The procrate depends on the weapon speed. With a 2,7 speed sword it procs about once in 20 hits.
With a 1.8 speed dagger it procs about once in 30 hits.
The damage the proc does is reduced by nature resistance. The druid I've been testing it with had about 50 nature resistance and resisted 25% - 50% of the lightning damage.
All in all with the card equipped about 3% of my total damage comes from the card's proc.
Hope this is some of the information you're looking for."


"Just bought this for my Warrior. Gave up my Epic mount savings for it and paid 1200 G. After having it for a week, WORTH EVERY PENNY. My metered DPS has gone up about 25% since.
When my Rogue gets to lvl 60, I will be acquiring the cards/buying another elementals deck. Probably be even more of an impact on him.
Mr Suitcase"


"This card has replaced my Blackhand trinket as the damage it does imo is better then the 2% crit in pvp, (I always have PvP trinket equipped in BG's) The Trinket has done 3% of my overall damage and can proc 2-3 times per mob or not at all its a fickle thing, But the Damage it does is nice and I would recommend getting one for anyone. "


"according to Arthenix on thottbots maelstorm comments the procrate is 2,5%. He wrote:
"Tested the proc rate with 3520 hits/crits:
was exactly 2,5% of chance on hit with draconic maul (3,5 speed)" "
http://web.archive.org/web/200605191218 ... item=19289

"it procs often and does good amount of damage for the level; however I would not bother using it in a dungeons because it will constantly pull enemies off the tank."
http://www.wowhead.com/item=19289/darkm ... m#comments
spottedtauren on 2006/10/10 (Patch 1.12.1)



One states 5% procrate, another states 2,5%, a clueless player states 25% more damage, 3% of the total overall damage is identified from two different authors. However, considering most players used recap and other programs with rounded up/down numbers to the closest integer, there's a strong possibility that the overall damage representation ranged from 3 to 3.499%. What type of gear did these players use? About the same that will be available on Nostalrius when BWL has been released.

The trinket is great on certain encounter(s) PVE-wise. Always good in PVP. Very situational. Would love a reliable post from somewhere between 2005-3 to 2006-12 stating number of hits/misses/crits combined with number of procs+crits & missed/resisted procs and whatnot that is connected to the recount/recap addons. One could only dream though as the trinket was popular in the TBC beta and in direct competition to Romulas poison vial. Chances for shadow nerfs and buffs in the time between launch, into the TBC beta, into TBC is always an enjoyable possibility.

Ironduke wrote:For a combat dagger rogue in PvE with not GREAT gear (MC gear) where does the darkmoon card fit in between Hand of Justice and Blackhands Breath?

DMC + HoJ
DMC + Blackhands
HoJ + Blackhands

What is best here? >_<

Just wanted to point out that :

1) Seeing how the proc rate differs according to several sources, the best would be to test it in game once we can get it and decide after that. As things might be a little bit different for this trinket on Nost than during retail vanilla regarding :
- Proc rate
- Ppm
- Proc dmg can crit like it should ?
- Proc dmg affected by debuffs like Nightfall ?
- Spell Power ratio of the damage ? (Imagine if it's around 70-90% SP ratio )
- Proc dmg (partially) resistable (assuming this mechanic is working as intended) ?

2) You mentionned that you are combat daggers and being speced as such myself, I would definetely equip it over Blackhand's Breath since :
- Your white and yellow crit chance is already insanely high at this stage of the game and a little dps upgrade like DCM can make (way) more difference than a flat 2% crit past a certain amount of crit chance
- You might benefit a lot from DCM considering your high AS and that the HoJ procs would trigger DCM proc

To directly answer your question and keeping in mind the above points, I think DCM + HoJ synergize well together and would be the best trinket combo.

Disregarding procrate, ppm and such, I would always equip it for specific boss encounters/pack of mobs (nature vuln someone ? )

Edit : FYI we should be able to turn in the Decks and get the trinkets in patch 1.6.

http://forum.theincrediblesguild.com/sh ... -Maelstrom

Default 06-16-2006, 12:28 AM

while leveling up my 2H mace skill. It proc'd 77 times in 1500 swings yielding a 5.1% proc rate with a 2.8 speed weapon.

I suspect that this trinket is a proc per minute (PPM) effect and will be affected by weapon speed, mainly because a 5% proc rate seems really overpowered for rogues and fury warriors. I was able to do some more tests with a 1H mace with a speed of 2.0. With this mace the card proc'd 35 times out of 1310 swings, yielding a 2.6% proc rate. Although I didnt get a chance to get the same sized sample as before, this is a significantly lower proc rate for the lower weapon speed.

Slower weapons tend to proc this effect more than faster weapons. However, as mentioned below, classes that can spam instant attacks will perceive a higher PPM rate than classes without instant attacks because instant attacks are not factored in to calculating the proc rate (only weapon speed). Lastly, these numbers I have provided are not completely accurate, but more of a guidline to see if [wowhover:f8bb479538]Darkmoon Card: Maelstrom[/wowhover:f8bb479538] is worth it for you.

the ppm system does not factor in special instant attacks like sinister strike. So, if you're a class that often finds itself spamming instant special attacks, you will notice a higher proc rate than that normally achievable given the item's ppm.

Each individual weapon will have it's own proc rate, instant attacks will use the proc rate from the weapon used for them (main hand). A rogue using dal'rend can expect 5.1...% proc rate on his main hand and instant attacks whilst seeing a significant lower proc rate from the offhand.

Fixed 1.5-2% proc myth debunked.


Edit: That fact does of course make the trinket immensly more valueable for Horde rogues than Alliance due to windfury.

Soyoen wrote:Fixed 1.5-2% proc myth debunked.

Debunked, my buttocks.

The "sources" you use are nothing more but random comments and opinions from people, most of whom have absolutely no objective data to provide, not to mention lacking basic statistical and methodological knowledge. Several comments claim that the trinket is a x% of their total dps - this is completely useless data, as we have no way of knowing what their total dps is or what kind of mob they were testing on to determine that the trinket is x% of their total dps (due to high resist on raid bosses, the % of total dps of the trinket will be far lower compared to ~lvl60 mobs).

The guy with the 77/1500 procs seems like your best source and even it is highly unreliable. Firstly, 1500 swings is not a large enough sample to test such a low % proc rate item. When I conducted my own tests on ED for the Maelstrom card, I collected sample of over 20,000 weapon hits and even then I left a margin of error proportionate to the size of the sample. The way the information in this source is presented also makes me suspicious of the author's methodology - he talks about swings, but swings don't matter, as the item procs on hits, not swings. Moreover, he doesn't mention the distribution of hits/crits/misses of the proc, which leads me to believe he failed to use even the simple recap data collection method - he probably stood there and counted on a piece of paper?

Then there are the people claiming there is PPM involved ... again, without any data to back it up.

Most of your conclusions seem to be drawn from overhyped comments from people, who had little actual knowledge of the game. Of course people would think the card is great - it makes big numbers appear on your screen once in a while, surely this means it's great, right? Everyone likes seeing more big numbers, instead of making your current big numbers slightly bigger. This is why opinions =/= data.

On ED the approx. proc chance of the trinket was 6.56%. With this proc rate the trinket was inferior compared to BhB for sword rogues and only marginally better than BhB for dagger rogues.

I've said it once and I will say it again - the trinket is not a valid option for raiding, unless its proc rate is much higher than blizzlike, in which case it should be reported as a bug and fixed.

The guy with the 77/1500 procs seems like your best source and even it is highly unreliable. Firstly, 1500 swings is not a large enough sample to test such a low % proc rate item.

About 70 minutes of testing from an early period in WoW history is about what you can and should expect. If you conducted over 20.000 weapon hits from one weapon source with an attack speed of 1.8, you stood for ten hours in a row and hit the same mob as snd requires combo points which would've ruined your test. If you on the same time used more than one weapon your test was incorrect and needs to be redone. Also do remember that eventual tests needs to be conducted with different speed weapons on both weapon hands on their own.

which leads me to believe he failed to use even the simple recap data collection method - he probably stood there and counted on a piece of paper?

You are seriously believing that someone, however tryhard he or she might be, would sit with a piece of papper and log the hits manually?

Then there are the people claiming there is PPM involved ... again, without any data to back it up.

Procs early on either had PPM or a static proc chance, static proc chance items such as hand of justice always displayed what the actual proc chance was. Hence the neverending questions of "what's the procrate of...?". Again, this is and should still remain as common knowledge since 2007.

On ED the approx. proc chance of the trinket was 6.56%. With this proc rate the trinket was inferior compared to BhB for sword rogues and only marginally better than BhB for dagger rogues.

What the proc rate is on other private servers is of no interest here. But I can already tell you that your "20.000 data sample" didn't do you much good on ED

I've said it once and I will say it again - the trinket is not a valid option for raiding, unless its proc rate is much higher than blizzlike, in which case it should be reported as a bug and fixed.

This trinket is a valid option for certain encounters for raiding as there can be found notes of 1000-1200 hits on for example Chromaggus, granted this trinket will mainly be used for pvp and was back then mainly used for pvp due to the fact that there is nothing in vanilla that decreases mobs resistance to nature damage.

Most of your conclusions seem to be drawn from overhyped comments from people, who had little actual knowledge of the game.

This is why opinions =/= data.

You do realize that data is information that has been analyzed? Information you retain from conducting a case study or likewise will not be considered data until the moment they have been appropriate analyzed. In the case of WoW, such information has never and will never required anything close to extensive quality mangement. In vanilla wow as you might know, everyone works with statements unless shit is listed by an incredible reliable source together with the information sample.

Let's have a look at the 1.5 fixed proc rate source you most likely use, which back then had almost no quality control whatsoever.
http://wowwiki.wikia.com/Darkmoon_Card: ... did=153503
23:12, June 5, 2006‎. The contributor adds in a 1.5% fixed proc rate upon the item WITHOUT providing any kind of sample size or anything which you (solmyr) could consider include statistical and methodological knowledge. Yet this statement is something you seem to defend dearly whilst there are several other comments baring the same weight which provides information that what the author states is in fact incorrect. I can't argue that on some weapon speed it is likely that the trinket has a 1.5% proc chance, and that the contributor could have used the fastest weapon available to him/her at that time. In any case, not enough data is provided to make any statements.

Now, you could provide me with a source that has more information collected than the ones I've provided. You could provide the readers of this thread some actual evidence in regards to the information used to draw the statement that the 1.5% fixed proc rate actually was what was in place during that specific timeslot AND not a PPM.

You could have tried to do this, yet instead you provide nothing but your usual rabbling which brings us no closer to a conclusion. So here's my challenge to you: Find several sources with actual information that clearly show that a 1.5% fixed proc rate is what actually should be present.

Find me the information logs used back then which without a doubt states that this item in no way could be affected by PPM, and explaining why the fixed procrate isn't stated in the item description whilst it on similar items with a fixed proc rate actually is and includes trinkets gained from the same source (Hand of Justice, Darkmoon Card: Blue Dragon, Darkmoon Card: Twisting Nether).


I wish you the best of luck in providing such information to this thread. I hope you don't dig your head into the sand and try to argue against my challenge, for the unmentioned sources you use could easily:

have absolutely no objective data to provide

Best of regards
Soyo

P.S. Excuse Plask, he seem to have special needs to troll.