Crit vs Hit

[Ensaneas]

I'm wondering when crit becomes more important than hit, and getting some conflicted information. Oto's guide says "In short: after reaching 8% Hit, Crit > Hit, until you reach the Crit cap.". However both the spreadsheet Oto posted from Elitist Jerks website, as well as Soyoen's spreadsheet both show my character losing dps when trading crit for hit, even though I'm at 15% hit.

Also in Oto's guide, when he says Crit > Hit until crit cap, is he referencing yellow crit cap, or white crit cap? I'm assuming white crits because with 8% hit the crit cap for yellow attacks is 94.4%, which seems impossible to reach.

[Flyup]

The yellow hit cap is 8% with talents - so if you're combat you should only need to get 3% on your gear to hit yellow cap.

White Hit = %24.6 so it's pointless to try and achieve that when getting crit % will do more damage / dps.

I would guess that you are on PVE server and possibly started on PVP? you might not be seeing accurate gear in that case and you should delete your WDB/WTF folder.

Crit will always give more dps compared to hit if you're yellow capped.

[Ensaneas]

No I'm on the PvP server and I have the right stats being displayed, I just have hit on half of my items plus the 5% from talents. I wish there were target dummies so I could check my dps, but I'm simply going off of the spreadsheets posted on this forum. They show hit > crit until ~20%, so I'm wondering if they are wrong in that aspect or not.

[Youfie]

No I'm on the PvP server and I have the right stats being displayed, I just have hit on half of my items plus the 5% from talents. I wish there were target dummies so I could check my dps, but I'm simply going off of the spreadsheets posted on this forum. They show hit > crit until ~20%, so I'm wondering if they are wrong in that aspect or not.

That's weird. What spec and spreadsheets did you use?

[Ensaneas]

That's weird. What spec and spreadsheets did you use?

Both Soyoen's, found in his signature, and the Elitist Jerk one found in Oto's guide. Posted below for convenience.
http://www.mediafire.com/download/yfrdb ... oyoen.xlsx
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id= ... =drive_web

Using typical 19/32/0 sword spec:
http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#f0efoxZMhqbbVzxfo

[Youfie]

Well I guess you'd have to check with other users of the said spreadsheets, or their creator. Or maybe post here your exact spreadsheet / a screenshot of your entire setup, maybe someone would be able to identify what's wrong (assuming it's not the spreadsheet itself, but something you overlooked in your setup).

[Drain]

The thing is, your specials can always crit. They do not benefit from additional hit beyond the cap. A crit to an auto+special makes more sense than just another swing on the auto. This is why crit is better. You're also powering up more Lethality hits. One thing that gets Rogues confused is the Hand of Justice and/or Sword Spec. It's true that more auto hits will get more procs... but the procs you're already getting can crit, so whether you get a crit on a previous proc, or just another proc by itself, you're still benefiting the same from the crit in this respect. As for other items, I've told many a stupid Rogue that the Eye of Rend is actually better than the Mask of Unforgiven in damage output, but so many still refuse to believe it. While 2 crit vs 1 crit 2 hit are almost equal; the extra STR on the Eye makes it the winner. Assuming you are already hit capped without this slot, you actually do more damage with the Eye. Hit capping 8-9% with Precision is incredibly easy, so most similar slots are better used on the crit choice(ie Painweave Band > Elven Ring).

The ONLY real benefit to excessive hit is more poison procs... which are already junk. They don't scale with any of your physical stats... so it's stupid to invest in more procs. You're sacrificing superior damage in exchange for more dinky poison procs, which just means you have to make more poisons because you needlessly run out the charges faster. More is not better when it comes to poison procs because in order to get more, you have to sacrifice crit for it, which is stupid. You are miles better off just critting more and proccing less, as opposed to critting less and proccing more.

So +crit is always better so long as your specials do not miss... until you get to the crit cap. This confusing point is when your autoattacks cannot crit because there is not enough hit left on the table. When you slot a crit, it turns a hit into a crit. If there is no hit left for it to upgrade, it will do nothing. Because of the dual wield penalty and glancing blows eating up the majority of the table for auto attacks; they have a much lower crit cap than specials. After this point is reached, the crit is "only" affecting specials, and not autoattacks, so we have the opposite situation from before where we now have to turn around and invest in hit because our autos are no longer benefiting from the crit. It's difficult to keep up with your crit cap, but there's an easy solution. When you fight a boss, just look at your attack log. If you are seeing any regular auto attack hits, then you are not crit capped. If you were, they would all be criticals. When crit capped, your autoattacks will only ever crit the target, get a glancing blow, or not hit at all. There will be no regular hits. This means that so long as you see regular hits, then you have more room on the table for crits.

If you are crit capped, the first thing I recommend you consider trading out is the Blackhands. If you switch this with a Royal Seal, you'll trade -2 current crit for +2 max crit, easily solving the problem, but also while gaining free fire resist in the process. If this somehow isn't enough, then you could look into other trades.

[Youfie]

I agree with most of what Drain just said.

I just disagree with the part about Painweaver > TER : there is no Hit / Crit equivalence valid for any Rogue or any spec. All you know is that Crit > Hit if you're hit capped on Yellows and not crit capped on Whities, that's it.

In most cases, TER > PW for a Dagger Rogue, 1% hit / 15 AP / 0,5% crit is better than 16 AP / 1% crit, because 1% crit > 1% hit, but the margin isn't big enough to allow PW to be better than TER.