Holy Priest BiS

[res]

Where do these statweights come from? For alliance they only make sense if the fight is over 16.5 mins long. (Int, Mp5, Crit)

Edit: Ah. Are these weights perhaps designed for MC speedruns assuming not drinking to full before bossfights?

MP5 is based on how much mana you save by downranking heal rank 3 to heal rank 1 with 600 healing which is about how much an end-game healer would have right now.

5 minutes of non-stop casting.

"Rank 3 Heal without the 600 healing. would cost me 23400 mana.
Rank 1 Heal with the 600 healing would cost me 13200 mana.
The overall healing done would be roughly the same.
So I save 10200 mana with 600 healing, that equals about 170mp5 for 600 healing."

Spirit is also based on this.
These calculations were done before spirit of aquamentas was nerfed so they might need some tweaking.

Intellect and Crit are almost impossible to value on a single piece of item since crit becomes more powerful the more healing you have and intellect becomes less useful the longer the fight is, I think I used 15 minutes of intellect vs MP5 for valuing the mana part of INT and a 1000 heal as the base for the critical hit part of intellect (so a critical heal would heal for about 1500) and rounded it up.

[PriestInOurTime]

I think I used 15 minutes of intellect vs MP5 for valuing the mana part of INT

Well that is a problem because it doesnt at all reflect the reality of raiding at the moment. Fights arent even close to that long. Multiplying the value of int by 4 or 5 would bring us closer to a real value for someone trying to be their best in MC raids. And in BWL it will also be off by a large factor.

One point of int is in general better than one point of +healing if you are starting the fight on full mana. The break-even point with your values would be around the 4.2 min mark. And fights just aren't that long atm.

So often do we see people claiming that rather horrible gear is better than gear with tons of int because player look at supposed BiS lists that vastly undervalue it. If you added a "short fight" column based on 3 min fights then that would be significantly more useful in current content.

The only change you'd have to make is to put int at 1.6 and you'd be done.

[res]

When we're clearing MC with my guild the boss fights are usually around 1-3 minutes, so 2 minutes of intellect vs mp5 would mean that 1 INT > 2HEAL by a pretty reasonable margin.

But we don't really have many "mana breaks" except for after some mana intensive fights (Garr (rebuffing), Geddon, Marjodomo) as such, it is the mana users responsibility to handle their mana, right now we can do Molten Core in about 60 minutes, and with 4 or so mana breaks, 15 minutes of MP5 versus intellect becomes pretty realistic, and if you take dungeons into account intellect becomes almost worthless - you very rarely need a break as a healer with good gear in a 5man dungeon.

This is one of the biggest problems with valuing stats on items, pretty much all stats are relative to the duration of the fight and what other gear you have.

There are some solutions,: you could just list the best gear for any particular fight (this is the most accurate one) but then you have the problem of listing item "ranks" since pretty much all the items worth are dependant on what other pieces of gear you have. You could also value stats differently depending on the length of the fight, 1minute, 2, minutes, 3 minutes etc, but then you don't take into account the different mana-intensities of the fights.

I've gotten some messages saying that I value intellect way too much, and some say i value MP5 too much.
It all depends on a lot of different circumstances and I can't please everyone.

The original stat weights before I started working on the list were:

Heal: 1
Spirit: 0.7115
Intellect: 0.3
Mp5: 3
Critical: 10

As you can see, intellect used to be valued even lower than currently, and I agree that for short fights Intellect is more powerful, I just don't know how I should approach things like this without making several and/or confusing lists.

The best solution would be some kind of calculator where you just put in the length of the fight and what heals you intend on using and the calculator would tell you the stat weights / ideal items, but I am in no way capable of producing anything like that.

TL;DR:
I guess the list is more of a guideline than a definitive list, because I don't think I'm capable of keeping up with several different values for different fights and so on. Ultimately I agree with you that Intellect is more powerful in short boss- fights, but World of Warcraft is so much more than 1-3 minute fights. I will look into making another tab more focused on short fights but I can't promise anything, I think that should still be simple enough to look up for viewers.

I value your feedback, and if you have any suggestions please let me know

[PriestInOurTime]

Well I must say that I'm happy that you improved on those values for int, since those are clearly even more off.

The way I see it a BiS list for healers should be designed with progression raiding in mind, being the best you can be to push yourself and your guild over the hardest hurdles. Currently that means a fight no longer than about 5 mins (2 phase Ragnaros) and often significantly shorter. (Im excluding Onyxia because there is nothing to heal on Onyxia)

If I had to choose a single fight length to make an "overall BiS" list I'd probably go with 4 or 5 mins rather than 2 or 3 giving a nod to progression Ragnaros and BWL but it is my firm opinion that 15 mins is just an unreasonable benchmark. 15 mins can be included if you make several different stat weights but not if you only want one.

[reddeffect]

So this wand list definitely opened my eyes to how the stat weights in the spreadsheet are somewhat subjective.

You list mana channeling wand about 10 points higher than crimson shocker.

Mana channeling wand starts to become better than crimson shocker after 125 seconds.(25 ticks of 4mp5 is 100 mana = 10 int (not adding crit))

Here's what I'm comparing... my guild full clear MC, the raidstats logs show that only 3 fights were over 125 seconds. So for maximum I should be using mana channeling wand only for these long fights right?

[res]

So this wand list definitely opened my eyes to how the stat weights in the spreadsheet are somewhat subjective.

You list mana channeling wand about 10 points higher than crimson shocker.

Mana channeling wand starts to become better than crimson shocker after 125 seconds.(25 ticks of 4mp5 is 100 mana = 10 int (not adding crit))

Here's what I'm comparing... my guild full clear MC, the raidstats logs show that only 3 fights were over 125 seconds. So for maximum I should be using mana channeling wand only for these long fights right?

If you have a mana break before and after every boss then the 10 int would be better.

1 int is actually 15 mana so 10 int would be 150mana (not to mention crit), so Mana channeling wand would be better only after 190 seconds.


I like that people are questioning the stat weights, and I'm realising now that I should really be adding a 1/2 minute fight tab for people who are only interesting in more accurate stat weights during short boss fights. I'm going to work on it tonight.

[res]

I'm going to work on it tonight.

Okay so I added a tab, which is a list based on a 2 minute fight.


Be prepared to get your healing-world turned upside down with some of these new revelations:

Robes of Prophecy just barely beats Truefaith Vestments and is currently the king of short fights.

Lady Maye's Pendant is apparently the best healing neck for short fights (yes, the random world drop)

Pants of Prophecy turns out to be the best pants, beating padre's trousers and the T2 legs (but just by a small margin).

We all know Cauterizing band is an amazing healer ring and is pretty much unbeatable, but what ring should you have in the second slot if you cant get 2 of them?

Fordring's Seal? Nah! Even Emerald Flame ring is better than that junk - but you should probably disenchant them both because the new #2 ring is Band of Sulfuras!

Benediction is still the king of weapons, and Dragon finger of healing is still the king of Wands, but it might be worth bidding on that Crimson Shocker next time it drops... It's the #2 Healing Wand in 2 minutes fights right now (unless you can find a green wand with more int!)


A short explanation:

Changed INT to compare to 24 Ticks of Mp5 so 1INT vs 1MP5 is 15mana (1INT) vs 24mana (1MP5).
Since MP5 is valued at 3.5x the value of healing, that means that 15 mana in a 2 minute fight is worth 2.1875 + the added crit% you get from Int (0.135135135x healing if 1% crit is valued at 8x healing) That makes INT = 2.322635135x healing in a 2 minute fight .

(Basically the value on the right side of all lists is just how much "+ healing" an item is worth since 1 healing is always worth 1 point in this system.)

[PriestInOurTime]

So this wand list definitely opened my eyes to how the stat weights in the spreadsheet are somewhat subjective.

You list mana channeling wand about 10 points higher than crimson shocker.

Mana channeling wand starts to become better than crimson shocker after 125 seconds.(25 ticks of 4mp5 is 100 mana = 10 int (not adding crit))

Here's what I'm comparing... my guild full clear MC, the raidstats logs show that only 3 fights were over 125 seconds. So for maximum I should be using mana channeling wand only for these long fights right?

Actually you can start every fight with your highest int weapons including wands and switch to your highest mp5/spi/+healing weapons once you've used up the bonus mana from the extra int.

[cheesus]

Is there an addon for that? I usually forget to swap back to healing weapon after the extra mana is consumed.

[gotmilk0112]

I'm kinda starting to doubt this whole "+heal is best stat" thing, at least when it comes to green "Of Healing" gear that has no int on it.

Switching out 3 stat pieces for 3 "of healing" pieces (+106 healing total) increases my Rank 3 Heal by about 90, but drops my max mana by 600, and that 600 mana is almost 3 casts of rank 3 heal (216 mana each)

So equipping healing gear gives me +90 healing on that spell, but the amount of healing lost in the form of extra casts from having max mana is a little over 2000. Which would mean that in order for it to even out, I'd have to do 22 Heal R3 casts, which is...way more than my max mana with +heal greens on.

Same with GH Rank 4, it gets +90 healing, but I lose 1 more cast of it from max mana lost, which is 2100 healing lost.

Or am I just a retard and missing something?