Doomguard

[James Goblin]

Yes, I don´t have high end experience with locks, that´s why I am asking here - and listening carefully - to what others have to say. I am perfectly aware that Doomguard being useless (same as Improved Enslave Demon) was kind of ˝common knowledge˝ back then (Note to self: Maybe everybody else is right, and I am wrong? No, no, that can´t be... ). If nothing else, I spent hours reading exactly about that on Warlocks Den. But even there some people were enthusiastic about Doom and there was some controversy on it´s usefulness.

To clarify, what I am trying to do is to make playable Enslave/Demo Sac build (preferably, by mixing Demo with Affliction) with Doom out at least 10-15 min per (PvP) hour, playing with Infernal (which is, BTW,widely considered more useful than D. on W. Den, and probably in general) or normal pets meantime. I don´t claim it´s superior to standard builds (OK, it should be better while Doomguard/Infernal are out and under controll, with Demo Sac on - the idea is to maximise that time... Meantime I would ˝pay˝ for that luxury by playing some kind of gimped - precisely by 5 talent points - Demo/Affli mix). I just want to explore it and have some fun (which certainly means different things to different people ).

Speaking of IE/CoEx, I am very much interested to know why would Improved Enslave be useless past first 2 points? (that would be wonderful if true, I´m struggling with lack of points in demo anyway!). Also, what is wrong with CoEx / Improoved CoEx? (Based on tooltips - and I don´t know much more than that ATM - they look handy)

[Drain]

The +2% hit per rank just isn't justified unless you repeatedly enslave the same demon. 1) it shouldn't live that long. 2) even if you land every enslave, it's still going to break free faster with each cast. 2 points is good because it puts your default cast of 96% at the 99% cap. This spell is not affected by Suppression. The wasted 1% from 2/5 then goes over to the second cast. Usually, these pets should not live long enough for a third enslave. What are you doing with that Inferno? Using its fire for marshmellows? You should be dropping it into the middle of the enemy raid, where it'll probably die before the first enslave even ends. Or drop it into a group of mobs, where it'll be beaten up and can easily be sent to die afterwards. You don't want to keep these pets around, lol. With each enslave, they will break free faster and faster. The talent doesn't change this, it just makes the enslaves easier to land. You want to get them killed as fast as possible, assuming they even survive whatever extra dangerous situation you summoned them for. Even if you max this 5/5, you're not going to extend the durations that you keep the demons under your control, you're just going to have the spell land easier on repeated casts. But why bother if it breaks free 10 seconds later?

Curse of Exhaustion is terrible because every enemy player has their own snares. You snare them, they snare you, they're still in melee range, hitting you. A Warrior/Rogue would flat out thank you for using this instead of that painful Agony that could have gotten them killed. You're not going to kite these guys at 60, don't even try, lol. The ONLY class really hurt at all by this "exhausting" curse is Paladin, since they have no snare, and can't remove curses. So ya, great spell if Paladins are the only class you ever fight. But it's not. As I said, it's also useful in WSG. Slowing down flag runners is never a bad thing. But every other class could already be doing that for you. A WSG team isn't full of Warlocks/Paladins desperate for a snare. Anyone else could have put their own snare on the target and you saved 5 talent points. This just isn't worth losing 5 talent points on top of the damage from Agony, which costs no talent points.

These talents are much better in BC. BC also had far more demons in it, meaning you actually have things to enslave. In Classic, demons are nearly non existent. You got Maraudon and Dire Maul with some demons in it, that's about it.

[James Goblin]

I do intend to enslave same demon repeatedly, also I am worried about enslave durations rather than resists. If Warlocks Den math is right, looks like +4% hit is needed only during first enslave (IED ˝to hit˝ % also seems to be connected with enslave duration heartbeat resist checks, and there a couple of %s can accumulate into huge difference; also based on fear heartbeat resist check mechanics - reportedly dependent on Suppression! - no matter that Suppression is basically TO HIT for affliction spells, it is possible that IED affects Enslave resist heartbeat checks in same way... but 5/5 IED recommendations I saw are based on experience and practical tests rather than any math I was able to find) Appropriate excerpt is: ˝...you should have +4% hit (maybe only +3) to hit to get maximum enslave length the first enslave, +14% for second enslave, +24% for third...˝ then they continued discussion in order to figure how to gear as close as possible to +24% hit (not quite typical Vanilla value ) and test it.

Previous %s are as concrete as I could get from numerous Enslave-threads (these were surprisingly popular back in the days, often with hours of testing the most bizarre ideas), still they are just an estimate or speculation. But what all threads I was able to dig seem to agree on is that 5/5 enslave demon is very much recommended for that playstyle (it is different topic how good the style per se is, comparatively).

On CoEx / improoved CoEx, it works as tooltipped. PvP opinions on it, to put it shortly, gravitate to ˝Handy˝ with extremes being ˝Must!˝ and ˝Meh...˝, so we might agree on it only after some practical testing (anyway, we don´t have to reach same conclusions ). Speaking of ˝kiting these guys˝, I was one of these for a couple of years on 60 =) Anyway kiting (or catching runners) is complicated stuff, it depends a lot on who sees/hits whom first, CDs, engineering, internet and all kinds of Voodoo.

PS As mentioned in the previous post, I have dilemma between Siphon Life/CoEx and Soul Link / Master Demo. I agree that Siphon/CoEx is inferrior when playing with standard pets, by no means am I insisting on it.

PPS so 5/5 Suppression (just in case it somehow helps, being kind of ˝to hit˝ - anyway it reportedly helps fear stability a lot, and both Fear and Enslave are shadow based!?), 5/5 Improved Enslave Demon with couple of ˝% to hit˝ on gear if possible (and naturally, opening with Curse of Shadow) would be my initial setup. There is lots of semi-tested ideas (unfortunatelly, none of which belongs to me) on what to do when 3rd enslave breaks, I will probably touch it in one of the following posts. First I have to reduce all the material (even if compressed into links) to textwall of at least semi-bearable length =)

[James Goblin]

Short History of (en)Slavery

on a serious note, some Doomguard (and bit more) related links mentioned in previous posts


Early Blizzard stance (so called ˝blue posts˝) on Doom/Inf with some intriguing lines such as "Infernals are geared for use in a group situation. Trying to solo with the Infernal is risky business, and of course Doom Guards can't be used at all outside of groups." ( ! )
http://wowmb.net/forums/f9/2827-inferna ... iscussion/

Short tripple-banish enslave trick discussion, early 2005 (this seems to be nerfed/fixed a couple of months later); following link also contains some anecdotal info on enslave-relevance of Suppression: "Nope, no suppression here, although I may respec to it fairly soon. Don't generally have problems with resists anyway (in regards to Enslaving demons)" (unfortunatelly, this was early 2005, lots has changed before 1.12):
http://wowmb.net/forums/f9/3088-infernal_doomguard/p2/

An interesting Enslave-idea from late 2005; Excerpt: "I think it's ... more of sticking through 3-4 straight resists to find a couple more 3-4 minute enslaves. I guess the lesson is to not get turned off by a string of resists and wasted shards, because you can still get 7-8 minutes after that." that went unnoticed/untested further.
http://wowmb.net/forums/f9/5477-doomgaurd_enslave_fear/

Doomguard / Infernal stats info from September 2005:

Infernal - http://wowmb.net/content/The-Infernal.htm
Doomguard - http://wowmb.net/content/The-Doomguard.htm

In addition to previous link(s) - late 2005 (mid November) info on Doomguard / Infernal stats: "He (Doomguard) has around 5k unbuffed HP, and 3800ish armor (About where a shaman with a 2 hander would be I suppose). Infernal's around 4700ish, with the same HP." and, bit later : "Doomguard has 90 innate FR!"
http://wowmb.net/forums/f9/5937-tanking_doomguard/

Interesting, thou anecdotal, enslave reference to suppression: "I have suppression, held on to the doomguard for 4.34 , 3.45,and 2 minutes. My previous numbers were about 1,39sec,20 sec.". (This was questioned than confirmed again later in the discussion; no info on improved enslave talents or any +hit gear, his second and third enslaves look kinda short):
http://wowmb.net/forums/f9/4626-doomgua ... him_hours/

Little enslave/duel Priest/mind control trick (better to say, exploit) that people used to perma-enslave demons (or even have more than one of them simultaneously) July-August 2006 (personal Doomguard army, anyone?):
http://wowmb.net/forums/f9/8155-permane ... aved_pets/

Late Vanilla (end of 2006) Doomguard & Infernal DPS/Aggro test (note: they really DO hate us ). Bear Druid has cca 50% damage mitgation, which means Doom should be hitting/critting 300/600ish on cloth:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCBFsahkBPo

Late Vanilla thread named ˝Enslave Demon Workshop˝, lots of interesting stuff. Some potentially VERY interesting math inside (connected with my beloved spell hit - enslave longevity connection), but to me the prime value of it is in the sheer passion of enslavers discussing, which is both addictive and very inspiring
http://wowmb.net/forums/f100/9535-ensla ... _workshop/

Some late Vanilla/early BC discussion on heartbeat resists (I am, naturally, mostly interested in fear and enslave, still it should make interesting read to any CCer):
https://www.worldofcorecraft.com/conten ... eat-resist

Some additional (mid-BC) info on heartbeat resists / spell hit connection; links inside the given link have, unfortunatelly, expired but text strongly suggests the importance of Suppression talent for Fear stability, and spell hit in general for longevity of Fear/Enslave/Banish etc:
http://wowmb.net/forums/f8/24464-heartbeat_resist_cc/

PS Bit offtopic, but since we have no warlock class forums yet I´ll dump it here. For example it might be useful to any new Warlock while deciding/making some talent builds :
http://www.wow-one.com/forum/topic/5510 ... msearch__1

[Drain]

Can you put all that research time towards pre 2.0 macroing?

[James Goblin]

I prefer putting lots of time and effort getting into subtleties of long forgotten stuff that nobody - including devs - cares for. Preferably something that will be hopelessly broken from the very launch (and for years to follow, the longer - the better) and totally unplayable due to some elementary bugs. That is, I´d leave macros to sane folks.

[Hatson]

I really hope the devs will double check this thread and these links provided. And compare it to how it is on their side of it currently.
There could be a lot of details missing.
Nice research, James.

[James Goblin]

I would be a very happy puppy if anyone had any benefit from my excavations

[alucard001]

You didn't play a Warlock back then, did you?

Improved Enslave and Curse of Exhaustion were terrible talents in Classic. These were the talents no sane Warlock took, just as the Doomguard was the pet no one used. The first talent was basically worthless past its first 2 points, and the second was just plain worthless entirely unless you lived in WSG. If you had your trailer parked outside the WSG portal and went no where else in WoW, then "maybe" Exhaustion was worth investing in...

These talents were actually so bad that they saw some of the biggest buffs in BC that were handed out to classes at that time. Improved Enslave was reduced by 3 talent points to max out(2/2). Exhaustion was reduced by 4(1/1). That's how bad these talents were. Compare that with most Warlock talents which weren't even touched throughout BC.

I play SM/Ruin Lock ,and exhaustion curse is not bad at all in many situations. Like when you want to get someone off his mount.

Curse of Exh / Fear/ Dots, good bye dead

http://www.wowprovider.com/Old.aspx?talent=11215875_9