Spell Hit vs Spell Crit: The argument is over.

[diogenes]

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Spell_hit -> "The effect of Hit chance on Critical Hit chance"

Overall chance to crit over all spells cast is thus affected by hit rate. To calculate overall crit rate, multiplying the two chances together:

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crit rate over all spell casts = crit * hit

For example, a caster with no spell hit rating gear or talents, against a mob 3 levels higher (83% hit chance), and 30% crit rating from gear and talents:

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crit rate over all spell casts = 30% * 83% = 24.9%

In addition, direct damage spells suffer from partial resistance, but again, that has no effect on whether a spell hits or not.

im currently on the road, but will be home tomorrow to continue the debate.

Ummm, I don't dispute this and I'm not sure why you think this is even relevant to anything I said.

I said three things:

1. That blue post is in reference to the MELEE white damage combat table.

2. That blue quote does not say what you think it does. It is talking about a 1 roll system (melee white damage) where casters have a 2 roll system (does the spell hit? Does the spell crit?)

3. You did use appropriately use the theorycrafting of hit/crit correctly, but you factored in your miss chance twice when calculating the total amount of crits you get on a cast. Your own quote spells this out:

Overall chance to crit over all spells cast is thus affected by hit rate. To calculate overall crit rate, multiplying the two chances together:

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crit rate [b][u]over all spell casts[/u][/b] = crit * hit

For example, a caster with no spell hit rating gear or talents, against a mob 3 levels higher (83% hit chance), and 30% crit rating from gear and talents:

*emphasis added

Notice it says ALL SPELLS CAST. "Spells that were misses" are included with "all spells cast" because "spells that were misses" are a subset of the set of "all spells cast." Therefore it is erroneous to apply the miss chance to the spells that are in the subset of "spells that were hits" because they can no longer miss since they were already determined to be hits.

The calculation is either 1000*.83*.15 or it is 830*.15.
You are calculating 1000*.83*(.83*.15)

You are calculating miss chance twice, as I just illustrated by comparing the correct way of calculating crit versus how you are.

This isn't complicated.

BTW, there is no debate with respect to this. All of this was calculated years ago. You're not adding anything new here (except calculating your miss chance twice and as a result spreading misinformation).

[Guybrush]

im not accounting for double miss.
1000 shadowbolts
15% crit over all 1000
17%miss
= 12.45% of all LANDED shadow bolts are crits, 2.55% are rolled into your misses
830 landed SBs
830 * 0.1235 = # of landed crits

Still applying hit twice. 830 * 0.1235 is the same as doing: 1000 * 0.83 * 0.83 * 0.15

It should be:
1000 shadowbolts
83% of them will hit = 830
15% of those will crit = 830 * 15%

[Botmaster5]

Yes, you apply the 0.83 miss rate twice, its a 2 roll system. Once for your hits (1000 * .83 = 830) and once for your crits (.15 * .83 = .1245). You do not crit 15% of 830 becaue you cast more than 830. You cannot crit what you do not hit. Crit os spread over ALL casts, including misses.

Thats why you apply the .83 twice.

So you only crit 12.45% of the spells you land.

((1000 * 0.83) * (0.15 * 0.83)) = # of crits that land.

[justclassic]

Yes, you apply the 0.83 miss rate twice, its a 2 roll system. Once for your hits (1000 * .83 = 830) and once for your crits (.15 * .83 = .1245). You do not crit 15% of 830 becaue you cast more than 830. You cannot crit what you do not hit. Crit os spread over ALL casts, including misses.

Thats why you apply the .83 twice.

So you only crit 12.45% of the spells you land.

((1000 * 0.83) * (0.15 * 0.83)) = # of crits that land.

1. The qoute posted isnt related to spells at all !

2. A 2-Roll-System is only used on meele and ranged special attacks (f.e. backstab or execute).

3. A 2-Roll-System doesnt mean that hit is calculated twice as it only means that the crit roll is independant of the hit/dodge/parry/block roll. So the possible results of the second roll are only crit or no-crit.

[Botmaster5]

Regardless of the 2-roll system being applied to spells or only melee combat, your overall crit for landed spells is still effected by your miss rating. This is represented in the wowwiki spell-hit post, and posted in my earlier post.

So the effective "miss being applied twice" is still relevant.

15% crit + 17% miss = only critting 12.45% of your landed spells.

[justclassic]

15% crit + 17% miss = only critting 12.45% of your landed spells.

No.

It means that 15% of all LANDED spells crit and 12.45% of all CASTED spells crit. (If they are capable of critting)

But regardless of this I would sign your initial conclusion:

Conclution: +spell hit is better on EVERY LEVEL until you reach the hard cap of +16%, you will always have a 1% chance to miss

[diogenes]

Yes, you apply the 0.83 miss rate twice, its a 2 roll system. Once for your hits (1000 * .83 = 830) and once for your crits (.15 * .83 = .1245). You do not crit 15% of 830 becaue you cast more than 830. You cannot crit what you do not hit. Crit os spread over ALL casts, including misses.

Thats why you apply the .83 twice.

So much fail here. Please link just one citation from elitist jerks that wasn't berated that contained this absurd formula.

I mean just use some common sense. How can a spell that hit "miss" when it crits? That makes absolutely no sense at all.

This is just ridiculous.

[Botmaster5]

As the Blinken said after falling out of the tree... "I CAN SEE!"

I see the follies in my math, thank you. I will recrunch the numbers when I land back in H town, currently in Phoenix.

[diogenes]

It takes a humble man to admit they made a mistake, especially in the anonymity of the internet.

You have my respect.

+rep for the Mel Brooks reference btw.

[Botmaster5]

math in my OP was incorrect (i was applying the miss rate twice), corrected my maths.... the crit got slightly better, but hit still outshines it

1k shadowbolts, 15% crit, 83% hit, 602 spellpower
Total damage = 956,218.1 damage

+1% crit
Total damage = 964,533.1
Diff = 8,315.0 = +0.87% damage increase

+1% hit
Total Damage = 967,738.8 damage
Diff = 11,520.7 = 1.20% damage increase

let the ISB argument commense....