Theorycrafting Haste librams and enchant

[Taladril]

I was doing research into optimizing feral dps for myself and was contemplating the advantage/disadvantage of the haste librams and glove enchant. 1% haste per slot sure doesn't seem like much so I wondered how it would stack against 8 str and (eventually) 15 agi to gloves. Well you can see for yourself and below I'll write my thoughts as I see them. I would really like to see some discussion on it as I may have done something wrong or have bad assumptions.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... 4E/pubhtml

To start out, at the top I have written out some basic information as a reference. 1 dps is 14 AP and I converted that to Str. For main calculations I included all +damage enchant type things as I presumed that it would matter to the effect of haste (it does!)

I broke up all enchants down to how much AP they are worth. The agi enchant is broken down to the level of how much agi costs with AP + Crit.

The last reference is an important part. 1% haste in cat turns 1.00 attack speed into 0.99, speeding you up by 1%. But in increasing dps, that does NOT mean that dps increases by 1% - it's actually a touch more.
If you are confused, here's a quick example. Say you have someone who does 100 dps and someone who does 80 dps. Now the person who does 80 dps does 20% less dps than the 100 dps person. Does the 100 dps person do 20% more dps than the other person? Well lets see. 1.2 * 80 = 96. So no, he doesn't do 20% more. He actually does 25% more (80 * 1.25 = 100). Odd huh? Comparing down is intuitive, but comparing up isn't. Anyway the values for what dps increase actually is, is on the right.

So to get a value for dps given AP I compared myself with armor off and on and checked with individual pieces added and removed and I got the forumla at the top of the column. Adding the pure dps increase items/enchants gives the dps in the next column.

The next columns are taking the dps and multiplying them by the haste or inserting the appropriate AP into the formula. I then calculated a percent difference between the two. The 1% haste is factored against 8 strength. The 2% against 16, while the 3% is against 16 str and 15 agi. You can see that the 3% haste is much different because the agi enchant is much more powerful in comparison to the other two. The yellow section is showing that adding haste to the third slot doesn't become more powerful than 2% until much later because of the discrepancy of the power of the agi enchant.
The last column set is the dps calculation without any of the +damage increasers. You can see how it takes a lot more AP for the haste to become as useful as it does with the items. This makes sense because the haste is most effective when the raw dps is higher.

As a baseline, I am around 1000 AP unbuffed and without consumables. Now from my calcs it would be better to get the haste to head and legs but to get 15 agi. Now currently (pre zg release) the best there is is just 7 str so haste would be better than that as well.

Now let me slow you down because at least half of you are going to jump at me. Haste will only affect white damage done. Any special attacks, etc won't benefit from haste, while the white damage AND specials benefit from stats. And this is where the discussion gets muddy. I'm not sure how much % of my damage is white or special.

Notes to look at in the chart. Look at the higher AP levels. More haste and haste stacked with generally stronger gear has a multiplicative effect. It becomes more and more likely to be valuable. Intuitively this makes sense. It increases dps by % while the stat enchants simply increase you by x amount. I could very well see that haste may not initially be the optimal enchant, possibly with bis gear it would become that.

I think this may not get enough attention from rogues because enchants such as what you can get from ZG are so much superior that this is more of a pre raid bis discussion for them. Unfortunately for us, our higher quality enchants are all healing based, so we have to do whatever we can.

Thoughts?

[Lorilay]

Haste will only affect your white hits, so you will lose AP on every special attack that you do. Special attack account for more of your dps than white hits. Did you take that into account?

[Taladril]

Now let me slow you down because at least half of you are going to jump at me. Haste will only affect white damage done. Any special attacks, etc won't benefit from haste, while the white damage AND specials benefit from stats. And this is where the discussion gets muddy. I'm not sure how much % of my damage is white or special.

Please at least read through my entire post before coming to conclusions. Now I don't know what percentage I do with special attacks and the theory would get a little muddy for my without seeing some data from it or talking to a really knowledgable person.

Now if you know what percent of damage is specials for you and what ones you use (cause I bet rip doesn't get affected by attack power but I'm not sure) then we can crunch those numbers too.

Also this is not going to be a universal for everyone. Those that do stance dancing style dps will have a far higher percentage of specials vs white damage, rather than someone that maintains stance and attempts to optimize output simpy from there.

[Lorilay]

It's ~30% of your total damage, so you'd need to weight your benefit based on that (and losing 16AP on your special attacks). I wouldn't get too hung up on rip, because unless you're attacking a target dummy it won't be allowed in a raid environment due to the debuff cap. I'm not sure what its priority is once they up the debuff slots with ZG.

I believe (but I can't remember for sure) that this was addressed on the cat dps megathread on the elitist jerks forums, with the consensus being that haste was not work the 8AP, but that thread has long since been deleted so who knows?

[Taladril]

Well doing some looking into things and poking around I have added what I think is the appropriate amount of dps increase that specials would get given enchants. The result is interesting. Note that I didn't do the 3% column as it was clear to me that at no point is haste worth it vs 15 agi. However for the other, haste starts to win out at about 2000 AP. I am not sure but I'd bet that this is an obtainable number. So as far as I'd guess, haste is the better enchant only if you have practically bis gear. If you don't, then 8 str will win out slightly.

[Norjak]

I believe (but I can't remember for sure) that this was addressed on the cat dps megathread on the elitist jerks forums, with the consensus being that haste was not work the 8AP, but that thread has long since been deleted so who knows?

I was poking around on the EJ site, I thought they had an archive section at one time but it's gone now. At any rate, it might still be available on the Internet Wayback Machine if someone wants to take a stab at finding it.

[Lorilay]

I believe (but I can't remember for sure) that this was addressed on the cat dps megathread on the elitist jerks forums, with the consensus being that haste was not work the 8AP, but that thread has long since been deleted so who knows?

I was poking around on the EJ site, I thought they had an archive section at one time but it's gone now. At any rate, it might still be available on the Internet Wayback Machine if someone wants to take a stab at finding it.

I looked pretty hard (including on the wayback machine), but I couldn't find any archives of their discussion forum. IIRC you had to register to see them, so it may not have been indexed.