Can you beat my bear armor?

[Imbaslap]

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Damage_reduction

lvl 63 armor cap is 21855 .
you're at raid boss physical damage cap, you should be ok.

start looking at increasing HP pool though.(maybe threat too if you want)

[Imbaslap]

Eh, all our dps warriors start off the fight doing 1 sunder each anyways to get more uptime with 5 stacks. I do wonder what the math is on having a rogue keep up expose armor instead of sunder, though.

Talented Expose with 5 points is better than sunder... 300 additional armor reduction.

Ugh, now I want to build a raid group around a Druid MT and utility rogue with SF, imp expose and imp kidney. Just to do something different It wouldn't be better than standard raid setups but I think it would be totally doable.

Edit: BTW, I think expose armor makes it so that you can't use sunder armor. At least it was like that for a little bit after they implemented debuff priority during vanilla, maybe they fixed it.

but the points spent to get imp expose for a measly 300 armor gain is pretty atrocious for a rogue to do.
use the crystal items from ungoro to get a flat 200 armor reduction on the mob to counter this.
besides, you will always have a warrior tanking in vanilla. I'm sorry to tell you this but that is how it is.

[Armilus]

but the points spent to get imp expose for a measly 300 armor gain is pretty atrocious for a rogue to do.
use the crystal items from ungoro to get a flat 200 armor reduction on the mob to counter this.
besides, you will always have a warrior tanking in vanilla. I'm sorry to tell you this but that is how it is.

Thank you captain obvious!

[Undertanker]

Warrior Best Hard hitting, armored boss tank.

Druid Best tank against bosses that do primarily magic damage (warrior can't block/dodge/parry for revenge uptime)

This is exactly opposite. What the druid has going for it is high armor, which is useful against hard physical attacks. Druids have no mitigation against magic, and your health-pool difference vs a warrior tank really isn't that huge at higher gear levels.

Warriors have intrinsic 10% dmg reduction from defensive stance, so they take less damage from all magic attacks. They can also shieldwall, last-stance and eat potions while tanking. So simply put, warriors are vastly superior tanks on anything that does heavy magic damage.

At lower damage physical dmg values (like AOE trashpacks), warriors block also proves superior to greater armor values of druids, because the flat block value takes up a larger percentage of an incoming hit than having a few more percentage reduction from armor does. Not to mention the superior avoidance offered by warriors.

The main strengths of a druid tank are armor and threat. For most competent tanks, threat isn't a problem anyway, so druids should mostly tank stuff that just hits extremely hard with melee attacks. Such as broodlord.

You can't use a potion between a cast and go bear again? Bears have higher armor so they are better against harder hitters? Wouldn't your examples of warrior be the same against the physical hitter too? To prove a point, your base statement should only apply to one side.

Druid is better against the caster because the more HP, regardless of the difference and better threat generation when a warrior isn't getting revenge procs.

Druid is worse against hard hitters because you can't get crit immune and can't avoid crushing blows. In BWL, raid buffed, tanking Nef I was at 17,750 armor with warrior 77.3% damage reduction. 2.7% damage reduction makes taking crits and crushings worth it? Get outta here.

[TheNIF]

Warrior Best Hard hitting, armored boss tank.

Druid Best tank against bosses that do primarily magic damage (warrior can't block/dodge/parry for revenge uptime)

This is exactly opposite. What the druid has going for it is high armor, which is useful against hard physical attacks. Druids have no mitigation against magic, and your health-pool difference vs a warrior tank really isn't that huge at higher gear levels.

Warriors have intrinsic 10% dmg reduction from defensive stance, so they take less damage from all magic attacks. They can also shieldwall, last-stance and eat potions while tanking. So simply put, warriors are vastly superior tanks on anything that does heavy magic damage.

At lower damage physical dmg values (like AOE trashpacks), warriors block also proves superior to greater armor values of druids, because the flat block value takes up a larger percentage of an incoming hit than having a few more percentage reduction from armor does. Not to mention the superior avoidance offered by warriors.

The main strengths of a druid tank are armor and threat. For most competent tanks, threat isn't a problem anyway, so druids should mostly tank stuff that just hits extremely hard with melee attacks. Such as broodlord.

You can't use a potion between a cast and go bear again? Bears have higher armor so they are better against harder hitters? Wouldn't your examples of warrior be the same against the physical hitter too? To prove a point, your base statement should only apply to one side.

Druid is better against the caster because the more HP, regardless of the difference and better threat generation when a warrior isn't getting revenge procs.

Druid is worse against hard hitters because you can't get crit immune and can't avoid crushing blows. In BWL, raid buffed, tanking Nef I was at 17,750 armor with warrior 77.3% damage reduction. 2.7% damage reduction makes taking crits and crushings worth it? Get outta here.

I think you have misunderstood me mate, I did not mean to imply druids make BETTER tanks than warriors on melee bosses, but that you should play to your strengths. Both of them.

The strengths of the druid tank is the combination of large armor and large health, if you only tank magic dmg stuff you lose what is actually the single biggest strength of druid tanking : huge armor.

It's the only thing you have that compensates for your lack of ability to remove crushing blows and crits. Without mitigation, the health-advantage you have over a warrior is effectively nullified already by the intrinsic dmg reduction warriors get from defensive stance.

Also, there really aren't many bosses that stand there and do channeled casts, they usually have some sort of instant-cast magic dmg attack that they do in combination with their melee attacks. Examples are flameshocks, shadow shocks and shadowflame in MC and BWL. None of the bosses that do these do exclusively magic or physical dmg, so you can't just shift out and eat pots after taking a large magic burst, because you might get crit or crushed. So you'll have to just stay in bearform and soak it. While druids CAN tank these bosses, they aren't at all good at it just because you might have up to about 1K more health than a warrior at a similar gear level.

What the druid excels at, at least in the sense that it is WORTH IT to use a druid tank, is an extremely hard hitting melee boss: Broodlord Lashlayer, Bloodlord Mandokir, Patchwerk. There are only very few bosses like these in the game though, and even for these the druid isn't always the superior choice. A full T2 warrior will tank them just fine, the druid isn't better. But since the type of attacks the boss makes is playing to the druid tank's strengths, that's where the bear has the greatest potential to shine.

[Imbaslap]

I'd consider feral druid anyday over one of those bandwagon ret pallies.
I've seen druids tank twin emps, patchwork, and other bosses just fine back in the day. plus they buff the melee, are a good OT on trash, and can Brez plebs who die.
1,000 times better then a shittadin with a 2her.

[Theloras]

I'd consider feral druid anyday over one of those bandwagon ret pallies.
I've seen druids tank twin emps, patchwork, and other bosses just fine back in the day. plus they buff the melee, are a good OT on trash, and can Brez plebs who die.
1,000 times better then a shittadin with a 2her.

No Feral druid or Prot Warrior for that matter can AoE tank ALL of the undead add spawns in nefarian phase 3 and also kill them all SOLO the way a Paladin can.

Holy Wrath + Stratholme Holy Water + Consecration + Force Reactive Disc + Oil of Immolation = ALL THE UNDEAD ARE DEAD X 1337

[Imbaslap]

I'd consider feral druid anyday over one of those bandwagon ret pallies.
I've seen druids tank twin emps, patchwork, and other bosses just fine back in the day. plus they buff the melee, are a good OT on trash, and can Brez plebs who die.
1,000 times better then a shittadin with a 2her.

No Feral druid or Prot Warrior for that matter can AoE tank ALL of the undead add spawns in nefarian phase 3 and also kill them all SOLO the way a Paladin can.

Holy Wrath + Stratholme Holy Water + Consecration + Force Reactive Disc + Oil of Immolation = ALL THE UNDEAD ARE DEAD X 1337

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=18168
how you think 1 warrior aoe tanked 21 bugs that do 300+ dmg a hit on fankriss back in 2006?
plus this:
http://db.vanillagaming.org/?spell=1161
http://db.vanillagaming.org/?spell=5209

nice b8 m8 I r8 8/8

[Theloras]

I'd consider feral druid anyday over one of those bandwagon ret pallies.
I've seen druids tank twin emps, patchwork, and other bosses just fine back in the day. plus they buff the melee, are a good OT on trash, and can Brez plebs who die.
1,000 times better then a shittadin with a 2her.

No Feral druid or Prot Warrior for that matter can AoE tank ALL of the undead add spawns in nefarian phase 3 and also kill them all SOLO the way a Paladin can.

Holy Wrath + Stratholme Holy Water + Consecration + Force Reactive Disc + Oil of Immolation = ALL THE UNDEAD ARE DEAD X 1337

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=18168
how you think 1 warrior aoe tanked 21 bugs that do 300+ dmg a hit on fankriss back in 2006?
plus this:
http://db.vanillagaming.org/?spell=1161
http://db.vanillagaming.org/?spell=5209

nice b8 m8 I r8 8/8

maybe read what I wrote again so that you can fully understand what I said in the first place...

[Imbaslap]

I don't think anyone cares about a paladin at this point in the druid forums.