Questions on Holy Shield vs. CTC

[TheFishyOne]

As I've posted elsewhere on this forum, my Pallytanking experience on Live did not begin until TBC. Back then, achieving CTC through either Shield Block or Holy Shield was how you knew you were ready to begin your raiding career as a Prot War/Pally. However, CTC had two separate, yet equally important parts: 490 Def for uncrittability, and 102.4% Avo for uncrushability. Since Wars and Pallies were dependent on Shield Block and Holy Shield respectively to achieve CTC, when raid tanking it was imperative to maintain 100% uptime on them.

But the more I read on Vanilla raid tanking, the more I realize that here, uncritability and uncrushability are attained simultaneously with just 440 Def. On my final push to 60, I also realize that the mana costs of 100% uptime on HS are QUITE prohibitive in the absence of SA. As such, it would seem that HS is both a situational survivability tool, and a situational threat tool.

My questions are thus:

1. In Vanilla, was 102.4% Avo required to push CB off the table?
2. If not, how is HS best used to augment survivability?
3. If not, how is HS best used to augment threat? Can it be added to a threat rotation, or used as a cheap alternative to Consc in some situations?

ATM, I only bust out HS when tanking packs of at least 3, or on boss fights whenever Redoubt is up, but I get the feeling I could be making better use of it. Any feedback from experienced Vanilla Tankadins would be most welcome.

[smilkovpetko]

There are 2 differences between Crushing Blows among Warriors and Paladins :

Warriors can get immune to this (only maximum 2 hits which are pretty fast swallowed) and after that goes down to 44% (where 66% is chance to crushing Blow toward them) .

Paladins can't get immune to this but for that reason because we have more stacks for the duration they will not be swallowed by Boss . This make us staying always on 75% avoidance (which 25% to eat crushing blows).

For Boss that uses (Fire Breath , Frost Breath) holy shield same as warrior Shield Block is useless since the most of this Boss Damage is "Spell" and not Melee (too low damage) .

That's been said .

For 3+ Mobs - SoW/JoW with Consecration . Nothing else important.

For 1-2 Mobs = Jotc,SoR with HS .

Also depend if the Mobs hit hard or not .

HS is alternative of Consecration regarding Aggro and is Mana efficient that does much more Aggro than mana used.

Consecration is only good to 3+ target or to have "Burst" aggro at beginning .

(don't worry about Crushing Blows) even that warriors get's immune (from SB) their stacks runs off pretty fast so they are easily eating the next 2 hits with Crushing Blows , where Paladins will maximum eat 1.

[smilkovpetko]

1. In Vanilla, was 102.4% Avo required to push CB off the table?

Yes but not in a way as "many people says" that warriors are immune . Yes they are but only 2 Hits where the next 2 Hits their Avoidance gets twice under Paladins.


2. If not, how is HS best used to augment survivability?

Our Block Value is 30% higher than Warriors + we have Talent that increase our Strength .

20 STR = 1 Block Value . + 30% from talent = 1.3** Block Value .

3. If not, how is HS best used to augment threat? Can it be added to a threat rotation, or used as a cheap alternative to Consc in some situations?

At beginning you make enormous Threats bursting Consecration (but as i said depend on situation) later Holy Shield and SoR (with JotC) is more than enough for TPS and Surviving .
(example the video you seen me tanking Boss).

[TheFishyOne]

Duki, I seem to recall mobs having exactly 5% chance to score a CB for every level they have over the person tanking them. In other words, the trash in Suppression room would have a 10% chance to CB the tank, while Broodlord would have a 15% chance.

On Live, the combat table was something like : Miss>Dodge>Parry>Crit>Block>CB>Hit. If CTC works here like it did on Live during TBC, it is utterly impossible to push crit off the table; you have to stack Def to 440 to simply remove it from the combat table. Since Block chance can never push Crit off the table, a Maintankadin below 440 Def could proc Redoubt for +30% block chance. If he popped HS right afterward for another 30%, while having a combined Miss/Dodge/Parry of 20%, plus a base block chance of 7.4%, he would push Hit off the table, and have a 15% - Crit% chance to eat a CB. A Prot War with the exact same stats would push Hit and CB completely off the table whenever SB was up, but would have just as much of a chance to eat a crit as the Tankadin. This is why Tankadins were so desireable for Raid Tanking in TBC; Prot Wars achieved CTC much more easily than Tankadins, but once a Tankadin had CTC, he was the most stable tank in the game.

Regarding raid boss pulls, I know you advise to SoR-> JoR after precasting HS, reseal SoR -> JotC and then SoR for the rest of the fight. Do you ever HS purely for threat reasons? Consc on a boss with no adds? You said that you've done raid bosses w/o needing to pop a mana consumable. How so?

[smilkovpetko]

As i said it all depend on the fight and situation so we can only give examples :


1. Example (tank/spank boss) 2nd Boss in MC (the big Doggy) . Priests will use FW so we don't care about fears.

What left for us is Tank/Spank .

Pre pull = SoTc - Holy Shield .
Pull = Consecrate = JoTC = SoR = Holy Shield Again

Smoke cigarets/Drink Coffee and reseal SoR each 30 Seconds. (you will not loose aggro at any cost) .

If you are struggling in group with "high end geared" and you don't have "high end gear" . Then you might add extra 1-2 consecrations during Fight .

Demonic Runes will fill that mana (armor potion for this Boss is useless) so you can even use Major Mana Potion.

Keep in Mind that your Mana Regens so fast due to "not casting spells" by Spirit . Now add Wisdom and perhaps 2nd Paladin Judge with Wisdom .

[smilkovpetko]

If you have disrespectful group with "Jerks" that doesn't respect your Tanking and not following the Basic Raid Rules :

Pre Pull = SoR , Holy Shield

Pull = JoR , Consecration , SoR (2-3 Swings) , Holy Shield , SoTC , JoTC , SoR

Enjoy your coffee after last SoR and just renew it each 30 Seconds.

[smilkovpetko]

Once you finished with "starting" rotation.

during the fight you can add extra Holy Shield together with SoR swings for more Aggro and some Surviving.

Yes Holy Shield is good Replace for Consecration over long duration of fight.

[TheFishyOne]

Awesome, thanks Duki!