Maximizing Ret Dps (Guide + Spreadsheet)

Maximizing Ret Dps (Guide + Spreadsheet)

by apocalypsa » Sat Dec 12, 2015 4:27 pm

Table of contents:

    Foreword
    Spreadsheet
    Spec
    Stats
    Ability usage
    Gearing
    Sacrifices
    Miscellaneous information
    Changelog

Foreword


As the title says, this is is a guide on doing the highest possible dps under the current circumstances on Nostalrius. This is not:
- A place for discussion on the viability of paladin dps.
- A source of basic paladin information.
- A bug report.

I will try to avoid covering anything already mentioned in one of the existing guides on this forum. While there will be some unavoidable overlap, if you are new to playing a paladin in vanilla, I suggest reading those guides first.

Spreadsheet

Found here. While it is mostly untested and might contain some bugs, it should give a fairly decent idea on the value of different items.

The spreadsheet is not yet feature-complete. Planned features are on the TODO list. If you have any requests that are not yet on this list, please contact me. Do the same if I made a mistake/bug that's not yet on under Known Issues.

Spec

The best paladin dps spec is linked here.
Apart from a few points that don't affect dps, this is the optimal dps spec. Going 20 or 21 points in Holy allows for better healing, but at the cost of 3% hit from precision.

Stats:

I'm trying to work stat weights into my spreadsheet, but I'm running into some trouble. Excel/Google sheets masters please pm me.

The following gives a general indication on PRIORITY of having a stat on an item.

Using SoC:
Str >= Hit until cap > AP > Holy Damage > Crit > Agi > Spell Damage > Int
Using SotC:
Str > AP > Hit until cap > Crit > Agi > Spell Damage >= Holy Damage > Int

Ability usage

Seals
Currently, both SoC and SotC are viable seals for dps. As always, the best way to find out which one is better is to consult the spreadsheet, but generally:

SotC is better when:
Using a fast 2h.
JotC can't be used because of any reason.
Fights last only a short time or you switch targets a lot.
You're able to hit 2 or more targets with Consecration.
Your weapon is a BRE.

SoC is better when:
Using a slow 2h.
Using spell damage gear (especially pvp gloves).
Having multiple Ret paladins in the raid.
You have a high mana pool.

Note that SoC does scale with spell damage, and scales too much with JotC, but isn't affected by Sanctity Aura. It also doesn't have the proc delay and therefore isn't affected by a certain percentage of Vengeance procs.

SotC does not reduce damage by 40% as it should, and functions as a steady AP/Haste buff.

Judgements and other abilities

JotC: Keep up 100% of the time unless forced to keep up JoW or JoL. Different ranks of these stack, so coordinate with other rets in your raid, and consider asking holy paladins to judge a lower rank of crusader every now and then.

For these three spells, use rank 1 by default. If you have spare mana, uprank according to Exorcism > JoC > Consecration. Always uprank Consecration above others on multiple targets. Damage/mana/rank scaling is not static i.e. using r2 Cons over r1 Cons is less extra damage per mana than going from r2 to r3. There's a table in the spreadsheet.

JoC: Affected by SP, and JotC. Use rank one as mana allows.

Consecration: Affected by Sanctity Aura, AP, SP, and JotC. Use rank one on cooldown. This ability snapshots your stats when casted, so try to get it off during Vengeance and other procs. However, do not delay it for longer than one global to do this.

Currently bugged where it won't work if the boss' debug slots are full, and it can be overwritten by different ranks of Consecration used by other paladins. Coordinate Consecration rank usage with other paladins in the raid.

Exorcism: Affected by Sanctity Aura, SP, and JotC. Use rank one on cooldown.

HoW: Affected by Sanctity Aura, SP, and JotC. Resets swing timer and has a high mana cost. Use situationally.

Holy Wrath: Affected by Sanctity Aura, SP, and (most likely) JotC. Extremely high mana cost and resets swing timer. Use situationally on high amounts of undead.

Priority:

JotC > SotC or SoC > Consecration > Exorcism (undead) > JoC (using SoC)

Sacrifices

A vanilla paladin was primarily intended to be a support class. This means that a large amount of the tools Blizzard gave us are a boon to the entire raid. In many cases (auras, blessings, cleansing) this can be done at no or very little loss in dps. However, in others, it can't. In those cases, you might be asked to sacrifice personal dps for the good of the raid.

Auras: Most paladin auras have some situational use in some case or another, easiest example being Fire Res Aura in all of MC. As Sanc Aura isn't a major damage boost, just use other auras if the raid requires it.

JoW/JoL: Both are very useful to the raid and your RL might ask you to keep them up. However, doing is completely cripples SoC damage, as you cannot keep up JotC at the same time. Wear warrior gear, use SotC, and spend your mana on Cleanse.

Nightfall: Greatly increases the damage of your raid's casters. Depending on your gear levels this could either completely cripple your dps or have a negligible impact. Either way, if there's no offtank to do this, this job will probably fall to the ret paladin. Wear warrior gear, use SotC, and spend your mana on Cleanse.

Healing: Ah, the elephant in the room. Holy paladins are amazing healers, and ret paladins in healing gear aren't bad at all. On fights where mdps are next to useless, such as Shazzrah in MC, just wear a dress and throw heals. And, of course, at some point you'll be asked to heal for the entire raid. That moral question is out of the scope of this guide.

Keeping a healing set in your bags at all times is never a bad idea.

Also, have pallypower and decursive set up, and always carry enough symbols. People WILL expect you to buff and dispel.

Gearing

I won't be covering most of it as there's this great thread.

But here are some under/overrated items.

BoE:

Destiny: Until SotC gets fixed this thing rivals TUF in dps. And that for only 50g. Get it.

Brain Hacker: Destiny's little brother. Not nearly as good, but even cheaper. Still beats out level 60 blues.

Cloudkeeper Legplates: BiS until BWL. I've seen them go for 300g and at that price they're a bargain.

Lionheart Helm: You probably already know, but this thing's amazing. BiS. Worth the money if you have it. Seems to be slowly dropping in price.

Darkmoon Card: Maelstrom: At best, a little better than BhB. Not really worth getting.

PvE:

The Judgement set is currently a healing set and completely unviable for dps.

Lightforge 6set uptime is higher than it should be, making it almost as good as normal preraid gear.

Lastly, this is stressed everywhere, but let me say it again: HoJ is extremely strong. Get it.

PvP:

Getting exalted with AV can be done in one AV weekend and rewards a very good epic ring and TUF (and a healing offhand). I highly suggest doing so.

Honored AB has a very decent belt, although you can get a similar one by doing a simple quest in ZG. The higher ranks of reputation, while still having some good items, are tons of work for marginal gain. See WSG.

WSG: Don't bother unless you're PvPing anyway.

Rank: The blue PvPgear is considerably better than pre-raid gear and getting rank 8 is very doable solo. Rank 10, for the helm and shoulders, is harder but still worth the effort if you enjoy PvP.

Last words

I will be doing my best to keep it updated with new patches or bug fixes, but if you spot anything incorrect with either the guide or the spreadsheet, please let me know.
Last edited by apocalypsa on Sun Dec 13, 2015 12:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Maximizing Ret Dps (Guide + Spreadsheet)

by smilkovpetko » Sat Dec 12, 2015 5:12 pm

There was discussion about this here : https://forum.nostalrius.org/viewtopic. ... 50#p200584

Problem is that you give too low Value to Intellect, which our Top Server Paladin DPS are using Intellect Gear, Unlike them , those who does not use Intellect Gear are too low on DPS.

Evidence : 1 Target DPS.

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/Fight ... ssLimit=Pa

All those that have Intellect in their Items are Top dps.

The person that is using the Gear you describe is doing barely 300 dps which is extremely low.


I would like to see your Formula about Intellect and why you downvalue it when all Top Retri DPS are using Intellect Gear.


Regarding Seal of Command :

14 Attack Power = 7 Strength = 1 Damage to Seal of Command
7 Spell Damage = 1.4 Damage to Seal of Command
7 Holy Damage = 2 Damage to Seal of Command
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Re: Maximizing Ret Dps (Guide + Spreadsheet)

by apocalypsa » Sat Dec 12, 2015 5:21 pm

Those top paladins on that fight are using updated epic pvp gear. This gear great because, much like t2 and t2.5, it has both strength and spell damage. The fact that it also has int doesn't have too much to do with it. Int only increases spell crit (which doesnt affect anything except for Exorcism), and mana pool. Increased mana pool allows for some upranking of Cons/SoC/Exo, but the dps gain is still negligible.

I will hopefully be able to implement mana calculations into my spreadsheet soon, which will give a clearer view of the whole picture.
Last edited by apocalypsa on Sat Dec 12, 2015 5:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Maximizing Ret Dps (Guide + Spreadsheet)

by smilkovpetko » Sat Dec 12, 2015 5:23 pm

apocalypsa wrote:All those top paladins on their current profiles have epic pvp gear. This is great because, much like t2 and t2.5, it has both strength and spell damage. The fact that it also has int doesn't have too much to do with it. Int only increases spell crit (which doesnt affect anything except for Exorcism), and mana pool. Increased mana pool allows for some upranking of Cons/SoC/Exo, but the dps gain is still negligible.

I will hopefully be able to implement mana calculations into my spreadsheet soon, which will give a clearer view of the whole picture.


Only top 2 DPS have Epic PVP

3-4-5 Don't use Epic PVP also they use Intellect Gear. And they are still much more DPS than the number 6 Which is using Str(Warrior) Gear.

Increased mana pool allows for some upranking of Cons/SoC/Exo,


Which in fact is more DPS.
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Re: Maximizing Ret Dps (Guide + Spreadsheet)

by apocalypsa » Sat Dec 12, 2015 5:33 pm

I'm not saying int does not provides a dps increase. It's just not a major one.

I'm not sure how you got to that SoC AP scaling. SoC does 70% of unnormalized weapon damage. In the case of a 3.80 speed weapon, this means that

14 AP = 0.7 * (14 / 14) * 3.8 ~= 2.67

However, AP also affects normal auto attacks, as well as Consecration. Additionally, Int does not provide any spell damage, and, because neither SoC nor JoC work off spell crit, does not impact SoC in any way whatsoever except JoC base damage.

Even the gear you're wearing in those screenshots (which are worthless by the way; different server, no real dps data, etc etc etc) just happens to be good, and also have int on it - there is no causal relationship.
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Re: Maximizing Ret Dps (Guide + Spreadsheet)

by smilkovpetko » Sat Dec 12, 2015 5:46 pm

apocalypsa wrote:I'm not saying int does not provides a dps increase. It's just not a major one.

I'm not sure how you got to that SoC AP scaling. SoC does 70% of unnormalized weapon damage. In the case of a 3.80 speed weapon, this means that

14 AP = 0.7 * (14 / 14) * 3.8 ~= 2.67

However, AP also affects normal auto attacks, as well as Consecration. Additionally, Int does not provide any spell damage, and, because neither SoC nor JoC work off spell crit, does not impact SoC in any way whatsoever except JoC base damage.

Even the gear you're wearing in those screenshots (which are worthless by the way; different server, no real dps data, etc etc etc) just happens to be good, and also have int on it - there is no causal relationship.




I'm not saying int does not provides a dps increase. It's just not a major one.


How can you say this ? With more Intellect there is more Max Ranks Spamming which is Major DPS compare to downranked and penalty coefficient abilities.

The point is , we need definition and Formula which everyone does avoid it.

And no Seal of Command is doing 70% of Weapon Damage , nothing more.

The Increase of White Swings by AP will not increase Command Damage.

Two of those have nothing in Common ..
This is the only Command Formula :

70% of weapon Damage +
14 Attack Power = 7 Strength = 1 Damage to Seal of Command
7 Spell Damage = 1.4 Damage to Seal of Command
7 Holy Damage = 2 Damage to Seal of Command


Evidence

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Seal_of_C ... did=249861
Revision as of 20:59, September 18, 2006 Patch 1.12

Gives the Paladin a chance to deal additional Holy damage equal to 70% of normal weapon damage.


Even the gear you're wearing in those screenshots (which are worthless by the way; different server, no real dps data, etc etc etc) just happens to be good, and also have int on it - there is no causal relationship.


1. The server first of all Command Damage and it's Judgement are not scaling with Spell Damage, Nostalrius is by far more fixed in Bugs but point is that the screenshot i gave was from server that is exactly using the same Formula like Nostalrius.

2. If you deny the Screenshot you have RaidStats links to open there which proves with Data and DPS.
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Re: Maximizing Ret Dps (Guide + Spreadsheet)

by smilkovpetko » Sat Dec 12, 2015 7:03 pm

35 Intellect by Consecration will give you : 48 DPS that get increased (even higher) by Str and SP at equal rate (can also be increased by Sanctity aura)
35 Intellect by Judgement of Command max rank will give you : 25 DPS (that can multiple by crit) and get boosted by SP (can also be increased by Sanctity aura)
35 Intellect at Execution by Hammer of Wrath gives you 92 DPS (that can get increased by crit) and get boosted by SP (can also be increased by Sanctity aura)
35 Intellect at Undeads by Exorcism gives you 38 DPS (that can get increased by spell crit) and get boosted by SP (can also be increased by Sanctity aura)


There is the Formula from Intellect weight.

35 Str gives you 5 Damage to Command / 3.5 = 1.4 DPS (that can multiple by crit and increase by Sanctity aura)
35 Str gives you 17.50 Damage to White Hits / 3.5 = 5 DPS (that can multiple by crit) / 15 by Glancing blows = 4.7 DPS (that can multiple by crit)
35 Str gives you 23 damage to Consecration / 8 = 2.8 DPS (that can increase by Sanctity aura)

There is the Formula from Strength weight

35 SP gives you 7 Damage to Command / 3.5 = 2 DPS (that can multiple by crit)
35 SP gives you 11.5 Damage to Consecration / 8 = 1.4 DPS (that can increase by Sanctity aura)
35 SP gives you 15 Damage to Judgement of Command / 8 = 1.8 DPS (that can multiple by crit and increase by Sanctity aura)
35 SP gives you 15 Damage to Exorcism / 15 = 1 DPS (that can increase by crit and by Sanctity aura)
35 SP gives you 15 Damage to Hammer of Wrath / 6 = 2.5 DPS (that can increase by crit and by Sanctity aura)

There is the Formula from Spell Damage weight

Did i missed anything important for Retri ?

Here are your Stats Weight and DPS .
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Re: Maximizing Ret Dps (Guide + Spreadsheet)

by smilkovpetko » Sat Dec 12, 2015 7:35 pm

Overall :

35 Int gives you :

203 DPS (including undeads)
165 DPS (non undeads)

35 Str Gives you :

8.9 DPS on Everything

35 SP Gives you :

8.7 DPS (including undeads)
7.7 DPS (non undeads)

With Sanctity aura 35 SP gains 8.4 DPS (non undeads) , 9.4 DPS (including undeads)
With Sanctity aura 35 Str gains 9.1 DPS on Everything
With Sanctity Aura 35 Int gains 181 DPS (non undeads) , 223 DPS (including undeads)

Keep in Mind that Consecration in Retail Vanilla never work with Strength .

(without consecration bug) 35 Str will go down to 6.1 DPS and with Sanctity aura 6.7 DPS which is under SP.

The only beneficial Bug is Consecration otherwise you have now Formula.


Intellect is calculated with MAX Rank Abilities.

The DPS by Command will Variate and will go into lower DPS than Explained (depend on procs)
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Re: Maximizing Ret Dps (Guide + Spreadsheet)

by DrearyYew » Sat Dec 12, 2015 8:07 pm

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Re: Maximizing Ret Dps (Guide + Spreadsheet)

by Theloras » Sat Dec 12, 2015 8:32 pm

@apocalypsa: "Holy Wrath: Mana cost too prohibitive, don't use. Ever."

Holy Wrath is insanely good on Nefarian phase 3 undead construct spawn and well worth the mana cost to cast it.
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