AoE tanking - Nostalrius Edition!

[Kujalla]

See, the problem is that you simply do not know what you're talking about. I'll try to give a few examples to explain where I'm coming from.

Judgement of righteousness with 1 melee swing and consecration solve that issue within 1 second (like taunt).

Let me paint you a picture:

I will have SoCr on for the conc, let's say I'll get two good swings in at the start and three conc ticks. And the boss hits me once for ret aura damage.

200 damage swings, a generous over 100 per tick conc and some 22 damage from ret aura. With RF on that's like 400+600+50 = 1050 threat.

Now a second after when I pulled the boss a warlock starts casting his shadow bolt. The shadow bolt crits and he doesn't even start to cast the second one. The shadow bolt will generate 3000 threat to the warlock. Which is more than 130% of my threat and he will get agro.

Now I would need to build over 110% of the warlocks threat to get the agro back even if I stayed in melee range of the mob.

Now a Judgement of Righteousness hits for a whopping 250, almost 500 threat. It will not do anything close to enough to help in a situation where someone actually steals aggro from you if the monsters chase away from conc.

Not only is the problem that JoR hits for absolutely nothing and that you have to change the seal to cast it in the first place, mobs will easily wander out of your conc. And if you happen to cast conc in a bad position, you can't cast it again for 8 seconds while the mobs go ham on your warlock or healer or whoever.

The problem that I said that paladins have isn't that you can't build pretty good steady threat it is that you don't have taunt to react to loose mobs. Especially since conc, your main source of threat, is a stationary aoe with a cooldown.

Mana is not an issue at all even with Max Rank Consecration. It depend on the Player Management.

I will not talk about chugging potions, having raid buffs etc.

With tanking gear you will have less than 3k mana, throw in a few T1 and you'll have 3,5k max.

Max rank conc is 565 mana SoCr 160, SoR 200, Judgement 90.

Let's say you'll only use SoCr and three casts of conc for a pack, that's 1855 mana. You will drink before the next pack with only that.

Now let's say you're maxing your threat for a boss fight so you won't lose agro.

You'll start with SoCr, cast conc, judge SoCr, cast SoR and judge JoR and do conc on cooldown.

160+565+90+200 = 1050, or a third of your mana pool as I earlier suggested. After that it'll be 290 mana for JoR every 10 seconds and 565 mana for conc every 8 seconds. You will be oom at half-minute mark.

I have already mention : Seal/Judge of Wisdom = Infinite Mana and Extreme Regeneration.

JoW will have to proc five times to even regain its mana cost and only after that will it be gaining mana for you instead of losing it. It also give so little mana that I would advise against using it anyways. Maybe on very long fights like bosses with low dps group where you don't need the extra threat from JoCr and you would run completely oom even with rank 1.

SoW will generate you mana on the third proc and onwards and is a little bit better than its judgement but I would still advise against it given that SoCr is insane. If you are moving slowly enough that you do enough threat with rank 1 conc I would suggest going with SoCr and rank 1 conc instead of SoW while judging nothing to save mana on costs instead.

I didn't bother to actually calculate the threat per mana of the options but since SoW and JoW should be about 15ppm that would amount to about 73 and 112 mp/5.

I didn't got your goal about this.

I thought to share my experiences of actually aoe tanking stuff - which as I explained is something that a paladin excels at. I was questioned about my opinion that paladins have troubles in tanking general content compared to warriors and druids so I tried to explain it to you. I guess I wasn't thorough enough.

we can Tank all Bosses that Exist in Game.

In theory, yes. But in practice it's much harder and slower and with much less margin for error (less tools).

For example: I have pretty good gear, even some epics now, but I would not try to tank King Gordok.

The Topic is not what is doable or not , the Topic is AoE Tanking which shows that we skyrock on it.

I never disagreed with this. In fact I even ended my last post on this very remark. The part of the post that you failed to quote me on.

Videos of you tanking SM while leveling also do not challenge any of my points. I think you are right about the Improved SoR though.

[smilkovpetko]

I will have SoCr on for the conc, let's say I'll get two good swings in at the start and three conc ticks. And the boss hits me once for ret aura damage.

I would never ever use SoCr for Consecration if i would like to go on and spam AoE without Drinking.

Only 1 AoE per Mobs is more than enough while i hit elites with sow/jow, (if i were using the reflective shield) he would do the rest job.

Until Consecration is Ready Again - My Mana using sow/jow will be again in same number regenerated for next Consecration.
(i don't rely what sources encourage Spamming AoE using SoCr because it is Mana inefficient and Damage over long duration is reduced thus wasting your raid and group time by drinking) .

200 damage swings,

The damage you said by SoTc calculations are not 400 threats , seeing that you make mistake between holy and white hits.


The shadow bolt will generate 3000 threat to the warlock.

If you were Mature Paladin Tank you would Re Calculate again and reduce this 3k By 30% from Salvation.

In which you get 2.1k threats result.

Now a Judgement of Righteousness hits for a whopping 250, almost 500 threat.

JoR 500 + Melee swing with JoR 250 + Consecration tick 190 = 940

If you are Mature Paladin Tank you would always use JoTc in which

140 from JoR + Melee swing with jor another 140 + consecration tick 140 = 420 + RF = 798

940 + 798 = 1738 Threats in Single Second. Now i Doubt that Warlock should waste time Casting This Shadow Bolt , so i Don't Rely that 1738 Threats will make him Overaggro you since there is already Topic

https://forum.nostalrius.org/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=16499

Since Range should do 130% more Threats than you in order to overaggro you.

1738 Threats / 130% = 2259 Threats , in Which the Happy Warlock got here Unhappy because his Shadow Bolt did 2.1k Threats instead 2259 . so he is under you 159 Threats.

The problem that I said that paladins have isn't that you can't build pretty good steady threat it is that you don't have taunt to react to loose mobs. Especially since conc, your main source of threat, is a stationary aoe with a cooldown.

According to your Build that is missing One-Handed Weapon Specialization and Precision or Holy Shield i doubt that you always do Terrible Everything that is calling Tanking except AoE.

No doubt about terrible surviving that you have since - no holy shield and no anticipation.


Let's say you'll only use SoCr and three casts of conc for a pack, that's 1855 mana. You will drink before the next pack with only that.

Only 1 Max Rank AoE per Pack is more than enough while i hit elites with sow/jow, (if i were using the reflective shield) he would do the rest job.

Until Consecration is Ready Again - My Mana using sow/jow will be again in same number regenerated for next Consecration.

Now let's say you're maxing your threat for a boss fight so you won't lose agro.

You'll start with SoCr, cast conc, judge SoCr, cast SoR and judge JoR and do conc on cooldown.

Only Stupid People would Max Threats like that on boss.

JoTc-SoCr-Conc-SoR = enjoy your Coffee until the end of the fight.

JoW will have to proc five times to even regain its mana cost and only after that will it be gaining mana for you instead of losing it.


I didn't bother to actually calculate the threat per mana of the options but since SoW and JoW should be about 15ppm that would amount to about 73 and 112 mp/5.

How did you got this calculation?!. I see that you are not even Paladin Player.

295 JoW+ 270 SoW= 565 Mana Minimum or Maybe more Due to SoW procs is higher in server Regenerated over 8 Seconds. Calculations are done with 1.80 Weapon Speed using Jow/Sow.

1 Consecration last 8 Seconds.

SoW will generate you mana on the third proc

Are you even playing Paladin?!.

SoW generate Mana each 1 or 2 Swings.

I was questioned about my opinion that paladins have troubles in tanking general content compared to warriors and druids so I tried to explain it to you.

No Paladins don't have problems tanking at all , neither general or any existing content and are far better than Druids either.

I have Tanked every single Boss in Game as Paladin and i deny your statement since the Description above and Build you show was not even Paladin Tank or anything regard Viable Tanking Spec or Rotation .

But in practice it's much harder and slower and with much less margin for error (less tools).

It's much easier due to Aggro Making Machine (especially at beginning) where we can Full Burn our Mana to Speed up the Full Dpsing since start.

Our Tools are pretty enough to Tank easy and proper.

Videos of you tanking SM while leveling also do not challenge any of my points.

You already mention 5 Man Tanking , you got Videos to prove the Opposite of what you talk ,

In Videos you can Clearly see that i never Drink.

This is Topic about AoE Tanking , not about Boss Tanking in which you came up and Preach False Information .

And before you talk about Tanking Bosses you should go with proper Tanking Build instead Healing Build which is far from Tanking and it is just Experimental Hybrid Build for AoE and Healing only and not Boss Tanking Build.

[smilkovpetko]

let me see your gear and character you are using .

I recommend you asking for stuffs before you excel them if you failed in something.

This is only AoE tanking Topic , nothing with Boss , on the build you have and i believe that some similar version Theoloras is using , you can AoE tank Whelps/Imps and Heal or Dps. Nothing else .

[Theloras]

Another week and another BWL 8/8 for Entitled's Euro raid group - with lots and lots of AoE tanking goodness along the way:

http://imageshack.com/a/img912/9620/Sjnldz.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img912/594/UJPTGE.jpg

[Theloras]

You could say that today was a VERY good day for me...

http://imageshack.com/a/img912/6840/ySX1Lv.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img908/1509/weZEGM.jpg

[smilkovpetko]

You could say that today was a VERY good day for me...

http://imageshack.com/a/img912/6840/ySX1Lv.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img908/1509/weZEGM.jpg

ow gz for the shield time to pwn

[cigss]

tanking chillable targets.

[Theloras]

Let the games begin!

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/Fight ... ssLimit=Pa
http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/Fight ... 36&Fight=8

http://imageshack.com/a/img908/4136/HEbfIP.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img907/2569/hqsJtm.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img907/2898/ExTYzj.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img903/1654/tM5eAz.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img903/7333/4izjhr.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img911/3492/USdoZU.jpg

With my uber pew pew 11 / 23 / 17 spec:

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#sE0zZVhxfxZxcx0bb

[smilkovpetko]

Let the games begin!

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/Fight ... ssLimit=Pa
http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/Fight ... 36&Fight=8

http://imageshack.com/a/img908/4136/HEbfIP.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img907/2569/hqsJtm.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img907/2898/ExTYzj.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img903/1654/tM5eAz.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img903/7333/4izjhr.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img911/3492/USdoZU.jpg

With my uber pew pew 11 / 23 / 17 spec:

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#sE0zZVhxfxZxcx0bb

Man when i see some Paladin Retri use Nightfall i feel like something Crawling me >.< i hate that terrible dps weapon.

[Theloras]

Let the games begin!

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/Fight ... ssLimit=Pa
http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/Fight ... 36&Fight=8

http://imageshack.com/a/img908/4136/HEbfIP.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img907/2569/hqsJtm.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img907/2898/ExTYzj.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img903/1654/tM5eAz.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img903/7333/4izjhr.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img911/3492/USdoZU.jpg

With my uber pew pew 11 / 23 / 17 spec:

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#sE0zZVhxfxZxcx0bb

Man when i see some Paladin Retri use Nightfall i feel like something Crawling me >.< i hate that terrible dps weapon.

I know but it beats having to spam Flash of Light

The officers of Entitled and I agreed that I would get a Nightfall due to the fact that my lag/latency is quite high as I raid with the Euro group of our guild during prime 7pm server time - which is 10am for me - my Holy Light casting time was 3-4 seconds on average. Likewise, I can't raid during normal North American evening raid times cause my wife would cut my balls off if I did.

Anyway, what I do is I still AoE tank BWL suppression room and Nefarian phase 1/3 but break out the Nightfall for every other encounter seeing as the only other person in this raid group who has a Nightfall is our MT Polaris. At least this way, I am providing raid wide DPS increase for all the casters on every boss.

My 11 / 23 / 17 spec is built to maximize survivability, AoE dmg and Nightfall proc uptime with Seal of the Crusader. With Seal of the Crusader (+40% melee haste) and haste enchants on gear (+6% melee haste), my swing speed with Nightfall is 2.17 which gives me an average uptime on the Nightfall proc (+15% spell dmg to the target for 5 seconds) of roughly every 10-12 swings or so.