How will Ret Pallies justify their raid spot?

[smilkovpetko]

1) Ele shamans do scale well with gear

Let me write you something that Paladins said back in 2006 (pre TBC) .

viewtopic.php?f=43&t=25503

Statistics and you: What do paladins need?

The most gear dependant class in the game, or the class that is made or broken most by the gear it is wearing, is the Warrior. But we’re second on that list! Remembering that keeping your weapon, armor, and even your trinkets up-to-date is critical to having a powerful character. Don’t go into a gunfight with a stick, and don’t run into an epic battle with a green. But which stats, you may ask, are most critical to a paladin and what do they all do?

[Nugeneration]

??

Ele Shaman do scale well with gear. I'm not sure what you were directing towards since you quoted me?

[smilkovpetko]

Screw me it was mention for something else. Sorry my bad.

[Nugeneration]

Screw me it was mention for something else. Sorry my bad.

No problem. I was just confused no worries. =)

[Holystrike]

After observing a rather...heated discussion on hybrid DPS, I've noticed that all the other hybrid DPS specs either bring valuable raid buffs/debuffs to a raid or in the case of Ele Shammies, scale obscenely with gear. Ret Pallies, however, bring no unique raid buffs that would be universally good, and I do not know how they scale with gear. Imp SotC WOULD be in the same boat as Imp WF for Ele Shammies, but it relies on the presence of a Tankadin to mean anything, whereas WF is universal. Buffwise, Imp BoM and Kings can be easily picked up by Holy Pallies.

Yes, Ret DPS is horribly gimped atm by the Sanc Aura and Vengeance bugs, but they won't always be. On that day, what reason would an RL have to bring a Ret Pally over a Holy or Prot one, or even another class? What do Ret Pallies provide a raid better than anyone else?

For my purposes, this is PvE only, and a "Ret Pally" is any Pally with 5/5 Vengeance.

Currently you should just abuse the bugs and you'll be a fine dps.

Only use SoCr and don't judge , use a fast 2h weapon (destiny f.e. or brainhacker) unless you get your hands on a bonereavers or any bwl 2h , spam r1 consecration on CD (you might get a tick off), spam How between autoswings while in execute range.

Stack as much Ap and crit as possible after getting 4-5% hit.

This guy has absolutely no idea as to what he is talking about.

[smilkovpetko]

i love when Holystrike is my pure evidence i will let him to deal with sort of stuffs instead of me .
Since his English is good he can explain good.

[Ihealwpvp]

ret paladins do about 1/3rd the dps of warriors / rgoues. Arms warrior (not fury) in identical gear does about 40% more dps. From a math standpoint, 1 rogue=3 ret paladins. It isnt a good idea for a raid leader to bring ret paladins from a raid min-max dps standpoint. Nor is it smart for a guild to give a ret paladin dps plate over a warrior. Its like handicapping your raid/guild progression to use one.

[Holystrike]

ret paladins do about 1/3rd the dps of warriors / rgoues. Arms warrior (not fury) in identical gear does about 40% more dps. From a math standpoint, 1 rogue=3 ret paladins. It isnt a good idea for a raid leader to bring ret paladins from a raid min-max dps standpoint. Nor is it smart for a guild to give a ret paladin dps plate over a warrior. Its like handicapping your raid/guild progression to use one.

**Duki can theory craft paladins better then anyone on the server**

Firstly, this was me getting over 500 dps (Although it is recorded incorrectly I can update this next week)
Secondly I do not use a Seal of crusader rotation
Thirdly I hope anyone who does gets banned.

on average rogues are pulling roughly the same dps when their groups arent optimized in order for them to be able to top dps. In this fight my group was not optimized either in actual fact my group was terrible I was in a caster group and did not even have trueshot aura let alone what other guilds are using to optimize their dps to show off numbers.

This is direct proof that ret paladins can dps, the discussion ends here.

Thought id make a thread where people can post their DPS thresholds as they progress...

I was actually at over 500 dps but because a /swstats rv occured at the start of the fight it lowered my dps and didnt add it to my raidstats

413 Dps Lucifron (Unflasked)
http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/Fight ... 78&Fight=0

hopefully i can repost with an un-nerffed version of my dps next week.

Still not anywhere close to pre-AQ bis gear but getting there slowly but surely.

[JCarrill0]

After observing a rather...heated discussion on hybrid DPS, I've noticed that all the other hybrid DPS specs either bring valuable raid buffs/debuffs to a raid or in the case of Ele Shammies, scale obscenely with gear. Ret Pallies, however, bring no unique raid buffs that would be universally good, and I do not know how they scale with gear. Imp SotC WOULD be in the same boat as Imp WF for Ele Shammies, but it relies on the presence of a Tankadin to mean anything, whereas WF is universal. Buffwise, Imp BoM and Kings can be easily picked up by Holy Pallies.

Am I missing something or are you saying Vanilla uses Ele Shammies as DPS?

Yes, Ret DPS is horribly gimped atm by the Sanc Aura and Vengeance bugs, but they won't always be. On that day, what reason would an RL have to bring a Ret Pally over a Holy or Prot one, or even another class? What do Ret Pallies provide a raid better than anyone else?

Ret Paladin can provide a 2h weapon called "Nightfall" would would be better to the raid for a Ret paladin, more then it would be dps wise for Holy or Prot.

Nightfall
Binds when equipped
Two-hand Axe
187 - 282 Damage | Speed 3.50
(67.0 damage per second)
Chance on hit: Spell damage taken by target increased by 15% for 5 sec.

For my purposes, this is PvE only, and a "Ret Pally" is any Pally with 5/5 Vengeance.

25/26 Ret spec (to show you you dont need 5/5 Veng to be ret )

Jokes aside here,
I respect Ret Paladins, I root for Protection Paladin, but I play Holy.
That being said, sometimes a raid has enough healadins, and doesn't want Prot Paladins (cuz they are full on tanks) and just need that extra Blessing since Salv (blessing) is taking prio over Might (Blessing). I even know that warlocks/mages get Salv over Wisdom (Blessing). This is an opportunity where a Ret Paladin (with nightfall perhaps) could/should be allowed to help buff the raid. We are also all called "buff slaves". This gives the raid extra buffs (which help the raid) and nightfall (if they have it) helps the DPS of the spell casters.
Could a Prot Pally do this, of course, even a holy paladin could do this, but not as efficient as a Ret paladin when it comes to the extra DPS. Either way you do it it'll work, but a Ret Paladin with nightfall keeping wisdom (judgement) up (if allowed) would benefit the raid more then a Healadin doing DPS or a Tankadin doing DPS.

[Holystrike]

That is a pvp reckoning spec however and actually would hurt the raid more then benefiting it as you would be gimping your dps to a large extent.

the only thing you are picking up from deep prot beneficial to the raid is kings and guardian favour the and in reality most holy paladins include kings within their spec making that point spent arbitrary, while you can still pick up guardian favor through an actual retribution spec.

Also given a ret paladins staple for damage is to keep vengeance rolling you end up nerfing your overall dps through that spec.

If you are going to raid ret you should be aiming to do as high damage as possible while maintaining nightfall and minimising your consumed debuff slots on the intended target.