Theloras' Retribution Guide

[Theloras]

Imo Hand of Rag is one of the best items in the game because we gain spell damage in t2.5 and the fireball proc scales with spell damage alongside it's amazing speed... granting an all around badass weapon.

You should also add nightfall to pre-raid weapons since you have included other craftables and your pre-raid bis list has some stuff id change, i dont agree with sotc its intentional bug abusing and an overall dps nerf... and yet so many paladins are doing it.

If you arent allowed to judge crusader theres no point raiding ret with that guild, using socr has already been shown to be inferior even at this point in the game, and it will just drop off so ridiculously once you hit naxx where spell-damage comes hugely into play.

I know your thoughts on SotC being bug abuse and I appreciate your point of view - I'm merely trying to be realistic to the situation on the ground with the bugs affecting us, the current patch itemization (i.e. no spell dmg on anything other than PvP gear) and overall player mentalities (i.e. LOLRET).

Basically, when each and every one of our DPS Seals are all bugged, have been reported on the bug tracker multiple times and yet no changes have been made by the Nost devs in months (or simply labelled invalid and ignored), then we have to make due with what we have:

Seal of Righteousness bugs:
Seal of Righteousness (SoR) should proc as a separate melee strike
https://report.nostalrius.org/plugins/tracker/?aid=3614

Seal of Righteousness not working properly
https://report.nostalrius.org/plugins/tracker/?aid=2762

One-Handed Weapon Specialization (talent)
https://report.nostalrius.org/plugins/tracker/?aid=3202

Seal of Command bugs:
Seal/Judgement of Command and weapon/item procs
https://report.nostalrius.org/plugins/tracker/?aid=2839

Sanctity Aura
https://report.nostalrius.org/plugins/tracker/?aid=1344

Seal of Command (Delay)
https://report.nostalrius.org/plugins/tracker/?aid=1289

seal of Command Absorb Shield
https://report.nostalrius.org/plugins/tracker/?aid=1416

Seal of the Crusader bugs:
Seal of Crusader
https://report.nostalrius.org/plugins/tracker/?aid=1241

[Holystrike]

mmm true, good guide in general, id suggest adding those 2 items to the list though as they are kind of famous for pallys

[Theloras]

Reck Bomb Paladins rejoice - the bug below appears to have been fixed:

Reflective Damage is activating Auto-Attack prematurely and removing Reckoning charges as a result
https://report.nostalrius.org/plugins/tracker/?aid=3622

[Theloras]

mmm true, good guide in general, id suggest adding those 2 items to the list though as they are kind of famous for pallys

Nightfall is good only with SotC atm here on Nostalrius due to its 3.2 swing speed - it gets changed later on in Vanilla to 3.5 making it useable with SoC at that point.

As far as top 2handed weapons useable with SoC, the list below covers all but the top Naxx weapons:

The calculations were made for a paladin with the following stats :

# 800 attack power
# 15% chance to crit
# 140 spellpower
# +stats (crit%, agi, str, attack, spellpower) on the weapons are included. (procs are not)
# * means the weapon has an uncalculated proc or effet that can potentially increase weapon total dps
# ** means the weapon has an uncalculated proc or effect that can potentially increases SoC dps
# *** means the weapon has an uncalculated proc or effect that can potentially increases SoR dps.

Here are the results for 2h weapons :

Rank, name SoC DPS White DPS White + SoC DPS

1. Dark Edge of Insanity** 52.6 129.4 181.9

2. Severance 53.2 127.3 180.5

3. Ashkandi, Greatsword 51.0 125.2 176.2

4. Grand Marshal's Claymore 53.0 120.3 173.3

5. Sulfuras, Hand of Ragnaros* 51.7 120.1 171.8

6. Barb of the Sand Reaver 50.4 116.9 167.3

7. Kalimdor's Revenge* 45.1 119.9 165.0

8. Herald of Woe 46.4 116.4 162.8

9. Spinal Reaper 46.1 115.8 162.0

10. Bonereaver's Edge** 46.1 115.7 161.9

11. Drake Talon Cleaver* 46.0 115.3 161.3

12. Hammer of Ji'zhi 46.7 112.1 158.8

13. Neretzek, The Blood Drinker* 47.9 110.7 158.6

14. Zin'rokh, Destroyer of Worlds 48.6 109.4 158.0

15. The Untamed Blade** 44.5 111.3 155.8

16. Draconic Maul 45.3 110.4 155.7

17. Obsidian Edged Blade** 44.1 110.3 154.4

18. Manslayer of the Qiraji 45.7 108.2 153.9

19. The Unstoppable Force 47.3 106.4 153.7

20. Draconic Avenger 41.8 110.6 152.4

21. Sulfuron Hammer* 45.2 104.1 149.4

22. Finkle's Lava Dredger 37.1 107.2 144.3

23. Nightfall 40.6 107.1 147.6

24. Fist of Cenarius 43.6 103.3 146.8

25. Doomulus Prime 45.0 100.9 145.9

http://leftoversraiding.org/index.php/t ... or%29.html

So my BiS forever list stands as is:

Weapon: The Eye of Nerub | Corrupted Ashbringer | Might of Menethil

[Holystrike]

Well your base stats would actually be higher ( I mean i have higher stats in pre-aq non bis) but setting that aside, hand of rag actually can proc off socom as well so that would change its status to "**" and the proc is affected by vengeance and spell damage.

http://www.wowhead.com/item=17182/sulfuras-hand-of-ragnaros#comments

By bennetta (2,028 – 2·8·16) on 2007/05/30 (Patch 2.1.0)
It should be noted that the proc rate on Hand of Rag's fireball effectively adds about another 10ish dps

So we already know that this increases the dps of the weapon by a base 10 dps.

We can also look at the date of the post: 2007/05/30 (Patch 2.1.0)

Based on this we can assume this player had limited to zero spell damage on his gear due to 3 reasons:

His class could have been warrior as no class is posted which would remove all spell damage and vengeance from the equation

Even if he was a paladin this patch note is from 2.1.0 e.g after the release of TBC when the majority of ret paladin gear transitioned into straight physical stats to reallign with Crusader Strike

For a paladin using every consumable and world buff (Which this player obviously was not) this proc would actually crit based on spell crit as well and have significant spell damage i.e at least 300 spell damage from 5/5 avengers and FoSP

even assuming the procs 10 dps increase was including spell damage gear on a paladin with vengeance that would still bring this weapon to:

Sulfuras, Hand of Ragnaros* 61.7 130.1 181.8

Dark Edge of Insanity** 52.6 129.4 181.9

making it #2 at the very least however with full consumables and world buffs rolling, socom and judgement on cool down with hoj procs... I am absolutely certain it would blow DEoI out of the water through hand of rag's fireballs, bear in mind however this makes Hand of Rag the highest DPS paladin weapon in the game, but only on fights where the target is not Magic or Fire Immune.

The calculations were made for a paladin with the following stats :

# 800 attack power
# 15% chance to crit
# 140 spellpower
# +stats (crit%, agi, str, attack, spellpower) on the weapons are included. (procs are not)
# * means the weapon has an uncalculated proc or effet that can potentially increase weapon total dps
# ** means the weapon has an uncalculated proc or effect that can potentially increases SoC dps
# *** means the weapon has an uncalculated proc or effect that can potentially increases SoR dps.

Here are the results for 2h weapons :

Rank, name SoC DPS White DPS White + SoC DPS

1. Dark Edge of Insanity** 52.6 129.4 181.9

2. Severance 53.2 127.3 180.5

3. Ashkandi, Greatsword 51.0 125.2 176.2

4. Grand Marshal's Claymore 53.0 120.3 173.3

5. Sulfuras, Hand of Ragnaros* 51.7 120.1 171.8

And as we both know paladins excell through procs...

This weapon is legendary for a reason, and the procs make it a paladins dream come true.

[Theloras]

This weapon is legendary for a reason, and the procs make it a paladins dream come true.

***ONLY IF THESE GET FIXED***

Seal/Judgement of Command and weapon/item procs
https://report.nostalrius.org/plugins/tracker/?aid=2839

Sanctity Aura
https://report.nostalrius.org/plugins/tracker/?aid=1344

Seal of Command (Delay)
https://report.nostalrius.org/plugins/tracker/?aid=1289

***HINT HINT HINT @ NOST DEVS***

But I digress, the list didn't look at the very top Naxx weapons and as such, the BiS Forever list still stands:

Weapon: The Eye of Nerub* | Corrupted Ashbringer | Might of Menethil

*I had this weapon back on Peenix and I can personally vouch for it being EXTREMELY good for Retribution

[Xizt]

Man you guys can confuse people like real. So theoloras now says gear like a warrior and Holystrike and Duki say go for atleast 3700 Int on gear. haha

[smilkovpetko]

theo even without seal of command delay , seal of command can still crit and proc vengeance m8

it is still increasing chance , delay is only to benefit the seal of command itself ,

without delay however it still increase the chance of procs m8 .

"imagine like this"
1- with delay white hit crit - proc vengeance - seal of command benefit - vengeance proc.
2- without delay white hit crit - proc vengeance - seal of command doesn't benefit - vengeance proc.
3- with delay white hit doesn't crit - no vengeance - seal of command crit - vengeance proc
4- without delay white hit doesn't crit - no vengeance - seal of command crit - vengeance will proc again

this is what i am always trying to explain m8 . seal of command still boosting vengeance,trinkets etc proc m8 even without delay.

p,s you know our "inbox" deal , that will fix the differences . remember i been always pve oriented and you can see saphael there, thus our difference is "check talents" . (i won't be sharing this secret , will just give hints)

also the proc from ragnaros mace is much higher than 10 dps + uptime get increased from what i have already mention :jocom+socom

other than that "with current bugged sotc"
Dark edge of Insanity goes up to 181.16 dps .

[JCarrill0]

"Hell, it's about time!"

[Theloras]

theo even without seal of command delay , seal of command can still crit and proc vengeance m8

That's not the main problem with the SoC delay bug (although bad on its own).

Wihout a 0.5 second delay on SoC, we aren't getting weapon/trinket procs off of both the white and SoC proc here on Nostalrius and that is a HUGE deal.

That's why using Nightfall (especially at 3.2 speed), Crusader enchant or Maelstrom trinket is complete shite if u use SoC here on Nost - you are limiting your proc potential by 40-50%

I agree with you in Blizzlike theory but as I said to Holystrike earlier, the reality on the ground here on Nostalrius is much different and we have to adapt appropriately.