Paladin Ret on the Raiding Life

[Tinkertown]

Well then. Goodie.

Consecration should not scale with AP and One-Handed spec should increase Seal of Righteousness damage. I'm glad we agree.

one-handed spec should increase everything according "wowwiki" by 10% .

If that increase sor then this will mean that wowwiki is correct.

Well, no, that's not a conclusion that is reasonable to jump to.

If the talent did that it would be a great talent, not derided as it was at the time as fairly bad.

One-Handed Weapon Specialization - 5/5
Increases the damage you deal with one-handed melee weapons by 2/4/6/8/10%.
Not the most incredible talent in the world. If you proceed this far into the tree you might want to get this if you're using 1H/shield all the time anyway, and extra damage leads to shorter fights and more aggro. Not a massive damage boost, though, and you can advance to Tier 7 without spending any points here.

Source: A Paladin Talent Guide, updated 032906 (1.10)

"One-Handed Weapon Specialization (5/5), increases the damage dealt with one-handed weapons by 2/4/6/8/10%
This is a better talent then it appears, since it increases damage done by Seal of Righteousness when you have a one handed weapon equipped as well. Good for threat generation tanking. "

Source: Geld's Revised Guide to the Paladin Class | 08/25/2006

SoC didn't double dip in it. Consecration/Holy Shield/Retribution Aura etc didn't get 10% more damage.

The wowwiki entry that you are linking to isn't exactly an actively maintained topic, it is one dude who says "it should" increase all damage. No discussion, nothing. On that wiki page the talent even says "increases all damage" when every other source including the 1.12 client itself has a different wording. Compared to the very active and maintained sticky-threads there should be very little doubt as to which is the better source.

[smilkovpetko]

Well then. Goodie.

Consecration should not scale with AP and One-Handed spec should increase Seal of Righteousness damage. I'm glad we agree.

one-handed spec should increase everything according "wowwiki" by 10% .

If that increase sor then this will mean that wowwiki is correct.

Well, no, that's not a conclusion that is reasonable to jump to.

If the talent did that it would be a great talent, not derided as it was at the time as fairly bad.

One-Handed Weapon Specialization - 5/5
Increases the damage you deal with one-handed melee weapons by 2/4/6/8/10%.
Not the most incredible talent in the world. If you proceed this far into the tree you might want to get this if you're using 1H/shield all the time anyway, and extra damage leads to shorter fights and more aggro. Not a massive damage boost, though, and you can advance to Tier 7 without spending any points here.

Source: A Paladin Talent Guide, updated 032906 (1.10)

"One-Handed Weapon Specialization (5/5), increases the damage dealt with one-handed weapons by 2/4/6/8/10%
This is a better talent then it appears, since it increases damage done by Seal of Righteousness when you have a one handed weapon equipped as well. Good for threat generation tanking. "

Source: Geld's Revised Guide to the Paladin Class | 08/25/2006

SoC didn't double dip in it. Consecration/Holy Shield/Retribution Aura etc didn't get 10% more damage.

The wowwiki entry that you are linking to isn't exactly an actively maintained topic, it is one dude who says "it should" increase all damage. No discussion, nothing. On that wiki page the talent even says "increases all damage" when every other source including the 1.12 client itself has a different wording. Compared to the very active and maintained sticky-threads there should be very little doubt as to which is the better source.

He doesn't say anything regarding any other spell . Doesn't mean that it will not increase. P.S - Keep note of his word :


This is a better talent then it appears, since it increases damage done by Seal of Righteousness when you have a one handed weapon equipped as well.


Read that careful ! . "apparently in nostalrius does increase nothing other than white swings" .

if the person didn't mention other ability than sor doesn't mean its not for everything. (since nobody will use command with 1handed weapon (due to 7 PPM) and 1 handed weapons are too fast for that (inefficient) .

Telling you that if this increase "Seal of Righteousnes" damage does mean that increase everything else "as wow wiki" says.


http://vanilla-wow.wikia.com/wiki/Consecration

Read this :

Coefficient

The damage done can be increased by up to 10 % with the protection talent One-Handed Weapon Specialization.

[Tinkertown]

I'm off to bed, I'll probably drop in again tomorrow. For now I'll just say this: Stop linking to the vanilla-wow wikia. It is not a reliable source in and of itself. If you find a post there with references, sure use it, but link the references instead of to that wiki.

[smilkovpetko]

I'm off to bed, I'll probably drop in again tomorrow. For now I'll just say this: Stop linking to the vanilla-wow wikia. It is not a reliable source in and of itself. If you find a post there with references, sure use it, but link the references instead of to that wiki.

If the person said that it increase damage to SoR that mean it is reliable . "how come it increase the damage to sor and nobody mention in patch notes" ? .

[JCarrill0]

I tried explaining its not reliable, he uses it at evidence to justify claims.

Which in a way.. Makes sense, however most stuff I find was not as detailed with exact into until after 2.08
That's why I do not use it, but the stuff I have looked up is not the same as what everyone may have been looking up. (I look up stuff like armor caps, white damage... Stuff like that)

[Theloras]

Duki actually has it correct and linked a Paladin guide from the original WoW forums from back in 2006 to back up his findings:

Tier 6: One-Handed Weapon Specialization

One-Handed Weapon Specialization (5/5), increases the damage dealt with one-handed weapons by 2/4/6/8/10%
This is a better talent then it appears, since it increases damage done by Seal of Righteousness when you have a one handed weapon equipped as well. Good for threat generation tanking.

http://web.archive.org/web/200611102258 ... 1828&sid=1

http://web.archive.org/web/200611102253 ... 0018&sid=1

https://report.nostalrius.org/plugins/tracker/?aid=2636

[Ihealwpvp]

You dont take 1 handed specialization for raiding as retribution dps, that is a protection talent.

Mathmatically a guild and raid leader should take a rogue over a ret pally. as 1 rogues does the same dps as 3 ret paladins. Realmplayers raidstats confirms this. Best paladin on the server does 250-300dps, which is good for a paladin, and good for a casual/fun guild. but pretty bad when you consider what the top rogues and fury's do.

Playing a class that specializes in defensive support in any other capacity other than such, is foolish, non-optimal and hurts the raid and guild. Holy is just an order of magnitude stronger, in pvp and in raiding. literally 6/8 classes do more dps and are more worthy of min-max tryharding.

Paladins are extremely good at being defensive support heals, literally the tankiest, most durable healer in the game. Consistently and easily tops the healing charts. Ret paladins are the lowest melee dps spec in the game. Trying to play the most defensive support class in the game as offense is just stupid.

best hope is that a non serious casual/fun guild takes you. Or spec holy and pick up dps pieces after your fury wars are geared. It may be more time efficient to just raid a holy and get pieces for OS then waste time and try to find a guild that would take you as ret.

[Tinkertown]

Duki actually has it correct and linked a Paladin guide from the original WoW forums from back in 2006 to back up his findings:

Tier 6: One-Handed Weapon Specialization

One-Handed Weapon Specialization (5/5), increases the damage dealt with one-handed weapons by 2/4/6/8/10%
This is a better talent then it appears, since it increases damage done by Seal of Righteousness when you have a one handed weapon equipped as well. Good for threat generation tanking.

http://web.archive.org/web/200611102258 ... 1828&sid=1

http://web.archive.org/web/200611102253 ... 0018&sid=1

https://report.nostalrius.org/plugins/tracker/?aid=2636

Those guides are what I linked. As evidence that no paladin abilities except weapon damage scales with AP (SoC in turn scales with weapon damage though so that ofc gets bigger). It also clearly demonstrates that One-Handed Weapon Specialization increased weapon damage and Seal of Righteousness damage. That SoR was increased isn't really surprising given the wording of SoR, but if it isn't on Nostalrius it should. No other paladin ability is affected.

He doesn't say anything regarding any other spell . Doesn't mean that it will not increase. P.S - Keep note of his word :


This is a better talent then it appears, since it increases damage done by Seal of Righteousness when you have a one handed weapon equipped as well.


Read that careful ! . "apparently in nostalrius does increase nothing other than white swings" .

if the person didn't mention other ability than sor doesn't mean its not for everything. (since nobody will use command with 1handed weapon (due to 7 PPM) and 1 handed weapons are too fast for that (inefficient) .

Telling you that if this increase "Seal of Righteousnes" damage does mean that increase everything else

Actually, that it only affects SoR and weapon damage is exactly what it means. If this increased all damage you can bet your ass that he would write that. Look at the wording of SoR: Fills the Paladin with holy spirit for 30 sec, granting each melee attack an additional x to y Holy damage. There you have the reason why it scaled, it passes as damage generated by the weapon.

[smilkovpetko]

Duki actually has it correct and linked a Paladin guide from the original WoW forums from back in 2006 to back up his findings:

Tier 6: One-Handed Weapon Specialization

One-Handed Weapon Specialization (5/5), increases the damage dealt with one-handed weapons by 2/4/6/8/10%
This is a better talent then it appears, since it increases damage done by Seal of Righteousness when you have a one handed weapon equipped as well. Good for threat generation tanking.

http://web.archive.org/web/200611102258 ... 1828&sid=1

http://web.archive.org/web/200611102253 ... 0018&sid=1

https://report.nostalrius.org/plugins/tracker/?aid=2636

Those guides are what I linked. As evidence that no paladin abilities except weapon damage scales with AP (SoC in turn scales with weapon damage though so that ofc gets bigger). It also clearly demonstrates that One-Handed Weapon Specialization increased weapon damage and Seal of Righteousness damage. That SoR was increased isn't really surprising given the wording of SoR, but if it isn't on Nostalrius it should. No other paladin ability is affected.

He doesn't say anything regarding any other spell . Doesn't mean that it will not increase. P.S - Keep note of his word :


This is a better talent then it appears, since it increases damage done by Seal of Righteousness when you have a one handed weapon equipped as well.


Read that careful ! . "apparently in nostalrius does increase nothing other than white swings" .

if the person didn't mention other ability than sor doesn't mean its not for everything. (since nobody will use command with 1handed weapon (due to 7 PPM) and 1 handed weapons are too fast for that (inefficient) .

Telling you that if this increase "Seal of Righteousnes" damage does mean that increase everything else

Actually, that it only affects SoR and weapon damage is exactly what it means. If this increased all damage you can bet your ass that he would write that. Look at the wording of SoR: Fills the Paladin with holy spirit for 30 sec, granting each melee attack an additional x to y Holy damage. There you have the reason why it scaled, it passes as damage generated by the weapon.

let say the "tooltip was changed only" .

SoR is not exactly what it means . SoR is Holy Damage (spell) .

Also :

Increases the damage (it does not say melee or spell) you deal with one-handed melee weapons by 2%.

Regardomg SoR = nothing i mean clearly nothing says that sor should be only spell affected (neither patch notes , neither anything)
you can argue with me until tomorrow but evidence lies there:

One-Handed Weapon Specialization (5/5), increases the damage dealt with one-handed weapons by 2/4/6/8/10%
This is a better talent then it appears, since it increases damage done by Seal of Righteousness when you have a one handed weapon equipped as well. Good for threat generation tanking.

The actor want to say that people gave false judgement regarding this .

And yes i was playing Vanilla Protection Paladin and i know that increased the damage , that's why i turned in to research for evidences regarding Talent "that nobody would search of" .

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Patch_3.0.2

See lich king :

One-Handed Weapon Specialization now increases damage by 2/4/6/8/10%.

"doesn't says All" but it still increase all damage.

[Tinkertown]

I wouldn't mind if paladins got a bit better damage than retail vanilla. That would be swell. But I have to be intellectually honest when it comes to these things.

The guys who did all the theory crafting back then on how all the paladin abilities scaled didn't just miss that Consecration etc got 10% extra damage from 1hws. I just cannot believe that. When they did all their tests confirming and reconfirming the spell power scaling not one person noted that, hey, if I have 1hws then it scales 36% with spell power rather than 33% better tell someone. It sure doesn't sound reasonable to me. Unfortunately.