Ok, now that you have stated that paladins are superior
please explain this now
Why do the majority of groups, guild leaders and raid leaders choose a warrior as their main tank?
considering your statement, there are only two logical possibilities.
1) You are correct, paladins are the supperior main tank choice. Blizzard is wrong, and the majority of guild/raid leaders are wrong for choosing predominately warriors.
2) You are incorrect, warriors are the supperior tank choice. confirming the blizzard statement of "primary tank" and the majority of group leaders/raid leaders/guilds leaders are correct for assigning wars as MT
Logically, paladins cannot be the superior tank if the majority of groups pick warriors.
im impressed you progressed with blues through MC as a pally MT. i would assume that would of been rough, good stuff, and good on your guild.
but, i take issue with you saying paladins are equal / supperior to warriors as a main tank choice. the data just doesn't support your statement
How do i do tankadin?
Re: How do i do tankadin?
Ihealwpvp wrote:Ok, now that you have stated that paladins are superior
please explain this now
Why do the majority of groups, guild leaders and raid leaders choose a warrior as their main tank?
Because there are people that lack of knowledge and super skyrock with some "Forums false Math" and preaching everyone how bad Paladin Tanks are without any facts or evidence.
Similar like this person did at beginning = jumped here from nowhere and read statements pronounced :
viewtopic.php?f=43&t=15966&start=20#p137799
Such arguments plague like disease and therefore has no explanation at all.
Also how you came here without any evidence of what you said :
also worth mentioning that paladins need a warrior tank for progression until they can get the gear they need to drop. hard for a guild to start its raiding career with a pally MT.
How come you conclude that we can't get the gear we need?
paladins also dont have the emergency cooldowns for when things go sour like wars do
what bring you this conclusion that we don't have emergency coldowns? if you knew about paladins you would immediate tell that we got Bubble and Lay of Hands.
/Wisdom is Priority
/Activity is Skill
/Skill is gear
/Activity is Skill
/Skill is gear
-
smilkovpetko
- Legionnaire
Re: How do i do tankadin?
Ihealwpvp wrote:Ok, now that you have stated that paladins are superior
please explain this now
Why do the majority of groups, guild leaders and raid leaders choose a warrior as their main tank?
considering your statement, there are only two logical possibilities.
1) You are correct, paladins are the supperior main tank choice. Blizzard is wrong, and the majority of guild/raid leaders are wrong for choosing predominately warriors.
2) You are incorrect, warriors are the supperior tank choice. confirming the blizzard statement of "primary tank" and the majority of group leaders/raid leaders/guilds leaders are correct for assigning wars as MT
Logically, paladins cannot be the superior tank if the majority of groups pick warriors.
im impressed you progressed with blues through MC as a pally MT. i would assume that would of been rough, good stuff, and good on your guild.
but, i take issue with you saying paladins are equal / supperior to warriors as a main tank choice. the data just doesn't support your statement
1) You are correct, paladins are the supperior main tank choice. [b]Blizzard is wrong, and the majority of guild/raid leaders are wrong for choosing predominately warriors. [/b]
How did you got this conclusion about what Blizzard is talking about Paladins?!.
1.Is that the fake website you show where it says that Fury/Arms Warriors cant dps?!.
2.Is that because blizzard officially gave us "Protection" spec?!.
3.Is that because Blizzard made Melee Twin not immune to Holy so Paladin can Tank? Why else they would let only Holy school on that boss ?
2) You are incorrect, warriors are the supperior tank choice. confirming the blizzard statement of "primary tank" and the majority of group leaders/raid leaders/guilds leaders are correct for assigning wars as MT
First of all there have never been any Blizzard Statement that Warriors are only Tanks otherwise you have to prove me wrong with evidences.
Dude you judging for some website that is fake Blizzard and (Fury and Arms) doesn't even exist...
Old Blizzard Website first of all is long ago gone so please don't talk about some fake website.
You still talk with Assumptions,you edit all the time your posts ... i am enough and done talking with you. You still don't get it.
There is no point explaining to you and you are here to deny of what i have already done over 10 years Tanking as Paladin.
/Wisdom is Priority
/Activity is Skill
/Skill is gear
/Activity is Skill
/Skill is gear
-
smilkovpetko
- Legionnaire
Re: How do i do tankadin?
That wasnt a fake website, that was the offical worldofwarcraft.com website from 2006, the last year of vanilla. i used it as a reference, since blizzard made and designed the game, and that was the last snapshot before TBC hit. Im pretty sure almost nothing is immune to holy damage.
i did not say warriors are the only tank, i said they are the primary tank. blizzard states they are the primary tank.
while a warriors is getting t1 might, a prot pally is still going to be in brd blues. im not 100% on all the non-set tanking items in MC, but i think its just heavy dark iron ring ? and a few others? so while the war is in full 8/8 might, the prot pally is going to still have blues, stockade pauldrons, and heavy dark iron ring.
I made that statement because, i have the oppinion (and as others have said as well) that paladins can only main tank MC, when they have ZG/BWL/AQ20/40/naxx offset pieces. this would be a problem logically as you cant state you progressed through MC in vanilla as MT pally with ZG /dire maul blues.
keep in mind, maraudon, dire maul and ZG came after MC was endgame. so warriors could not progress through MC in retail vanilla with ZG/diremaul gear, as it simply didnt exist. the progression in retail was BRD --> MC. There was no dire maul, there was no ZG.
So while the warrior will be full t1, the paladin would still be in BRD blues with heavy dark iron ring and stockade pauldrons.
so basically what your saying, is that my 1) is the correct answer logically.
IE, you are correct, paladins are the supperior tank. blizzard, the games creators are wrong to say warriors are the primary tank, and the vast majority of guild leaders, raid leaders, world 1st vanilla kills. and in general the majority of the wow vanilla community is incorrect for choosing a warrior as a main tank over a paladin.
so its like a couple mil of players and the game creators are incorrect for believing warriors are the primary tank.
so you're right, and the million or so vanilla wow players are wrong for choosing the primary tanking class as the primary tank.
you can see the issue here.....
also, im guessing you didnt read the entire description from blizzard, ill paste it here again, as well as the link.
https://web.archive.org/web/20061113145 ... EE11.app04
"Warriors can be a raging berserker or an iron-clad juggernaut, capable of withstanding tremendous attacks while protecting their allies from harm. They have a wide variety of attacks that do everything from cripple their enemies, to dealing massive amounts of damage in a single retaliatory blow, and enhancing their allies' fighting ability with battle shouts. They excel at fighting multiple opponents at once, gaining rage from every blow dealt or received to unleash their attacks. Warriors are a versatile class with a variety of play-styles to choose from. "
The key sentences are the first and last. i will isolate them for you.
"Warriors can be a raging berserker or an iron-clad juggernaut "
this sentence means blizzard intended damage and tank roles for warriors
"Warriors are a versatile class with a variety of play-styles to choose from."
this sentence means that warriors can do more than just tank.
so your rebuttal is flawed, as you didnt read the game creators descriptions of their own class that they designed
In addition, here is another page from the offcial worldofwarcraft.com website from 2006
https://web.archive.org/web/20061112051 ... ntips.html
This is a Game Basics guide to making an instance group,
under the section:
Create your Party or Raid Group
"Get a Tank
You will have greater success with a heavily armored class like a Warrior or Paladin to soak up damage and to lead the party through the dungeon. You can play without a Warrior, but you'll find it's much better to have a good Warrior whenever possible."
the key sentence here is " You can play without a Warrior, but you'll find it's much better to have a good Warrior whenever possible."
again, this is not my statement, but blizzards. from 2006
Divine shield is basically useless as an emergency raid cool down for a tank. Lay on hands is very long CD, Last stand is a much shorter CD then LoH, also warriors have shield wall, and later life giving gem.
2/3 cds vs 1
its interesting that your final remark is basically:
"I'm right; the other 1,000,000-2,000,000 vanilla wow players and game creators are wrong"
i did not say warriors are the only tank, i said they are the primary tank. blizzard states they are the primary tank.
while a warriors is getting t1 might, a prot pally is still going to be in brd blues. im not 100% on all the non-set tanking items in MC, but i think its just heavy dark iron ring ? and a few others? so while the war is in full 8/8 might, the prot pally is going to still have blues, stockade pauldrons, and heavy dark iron ring.
I made that statement because, i have the oppinion (and as others have said as well) that paladins can only main tank MC, when they have ZG/BWL/AQ20/40/naxx offset pieces. this would be a problem logically as you cant state you progressed through MC in vanilla as MT pally with ZG /dire maul blues.
keep in mind, maraudon, dire maul and ZG came after MC was endgame. so warriors could not progress through MC in retail vanilla with ZG/diremaul gear, as it simply didnt exist. the progression in retail was BRD --> MC. There was no dire maul, there was no ZG.
So while the warrior will be full t1, the paladin would still be in BRD blues with heavy dark iron ring and stockade pauldrons.
so basically what your saying, is that my 1) is the correct answer logically.
IE, you are correct, paladins are the supperior tank. blizzard, the games creators are wrong to say warriors are the primary tank, and the vast majority of guild leaders, raid leaders, world 1st vanilla kills. and in general the majority of the wow vanilla community is incorrect for choosing a warrior as a main tank over a paladin.
so its like a couple mil of players and the game creators are incorrect for believing warriors are the primary tank.
so you're right, and the million or so vanilla wow players are wrong for choosing the primary tanking class as the primary tank.
you can see the issue here.....
also, im guessing you didnt read the entire description from blizzard, ill paste it here again, as well as the link.
https://web.archive.org/web/20061113145 ... EE11.app04
"Warriors can be a raging berserker or an iron-clad juggernaut, capable of withstanding tremendous attacks while protecting their allies from harm. They have a wide variety of attacks that do everything from cripple their enemies, to dealing massive amounts of damage in a single retaliatory blow, and enhancing their allies' fighting ability with battle shouts. They excel at fighting multiple opponents at once, gaining rage from every blow dealt or received to unleash their attacks. Warriors are a versatile class with a variety of play-styles to choose from. "
The key sentences are the first and last. i will isolate them for you.
"Warriors can be a raging berserker or an iron-clad juggernaut "
this sentence means blizzard intended damage and tank roles for warriors
"Warriors are a versatile class with a variety of play-styles to choose from."
this sentence means that warriors can do more than just tank.
so your rebuttal is flawed, as you didnt read the game creators descriptions of their own class that they designed
In addition, here is another page from the offcial worldofwarcraft.com website from 2006
https://web.archive.org/web/20061112051 ... ntips.html
This is a Game Basics guide to making an instance group,
under the section:
Create your Party or Raid Group
"Get a Tank
You will have greater success with a heavily armored class like a Warrior or Paladin to soak up damage and to lead the party through the dungeon. You can play without a Warrior, but you'll find it's much better to have a good Warrior whenever possible."
the key sentence here is " You can play without a Warrior, but you'll find it's much better to have a good Warrior whenever possible."
again, this is not my statement, but blizzards. from 2006
Divine shield is basically useless as an emergency raid cool down for a tank. Lay on hands is very long CD, Last stand is a much shorter CD then LoH, also warriors have shield wall, and later life giving gem.
2/3 cds vs 1
its interesting that your final remark is basically:
"I'm right; the other 1,000,000-2,000,000 vanilla wow players and game creators are wrong"
- Ihealwpvp
- Senior Sergeant
Re: How do i do tankadin?
Ihealwpvp - the class web page changed so many frickin times during Vanilla that it wasn't even funny - likewise the classes changed so many different ways with each respective patch as the Blizzard Devs tried to fix areas in which they screwed things up (for Paladins it was Patch 1.9 when AQ came out).
Secondly, original Paladin Tier 1 Lawbringer gear was actual Hybrid itemization and was only recently changed here on Nostalrius earlier in the summer. It had oodles of STR, Hit and GASP Shield Block GASP because Paladins along with their Judgements and Tier Bonuses were actually meant to be in Melee.
Lastly, Blessing of Kings was originally the frickin 31 point Retribution talent which meant that in order to get it, YOU HAD TO HAVE A RETRIBUTION PALADIN IN YOUR RAID!!!
The Paladin description said at some point in Vanilla that Paladins were "capable of unleashing massive amounts of damage."
Now whether the Devs were referring to Reck Bombs specifically (which is in the Protection tree and was the original actual Paladin PvP tree) or whether they meant a deep Retribution Paladin having a white melee hit with Seal of Command both gritting at the same time, we will never know - but as you can see things could and actually did change over the duration of Vanilla for all classes.
See, I can also play around with outdated material that was merely a placeholder and changed over time.
Secondly, original Paladin Tier 1 Lawbringer gear was actual Hybrid itemization and was only recently changed here on Nostalrius earlier in the summer. It had oodles of STR, Hit and GASP Shield Block GASP because Paladins along with their Judgements and Tier Bonuses were actually meant to be in Melee.
Lastly, Blessing of Kings was originally the frickin 31 point Retribution talent which meant that in order to get it, YOU HAD TO HAVE A RETRIBUTION PALADIN IN YOUR RAID!!!
The Paladin description said at some point in Vanilla that Paladins were "capable of unleashing massive amounts of damage."
Now whether the Devs were referring to Reck Bombs specifically (which is in the Protection tree and was the original actual Paladin PvP tree) or whether they meant a deep Retribution Paladin having a white melee hit with Seal of Command both gritting at the same time, we will never know - but as you can see things could and actually did change over the duration of Vanilla for all classes.
See, I can also play around with outdated material that was merely a placeholder and changed over time.
- Theloras
- Knight-Lieutenant
Re: How do i do tankadin?
none of the protection pallies in this thread has been able to provide a simple logical answer to this statement, you have been avoiding this question for the whole thread....
Please explain to me simply without vitriol:
Why the overwhelmingly vast majority of raid leaders/group leaders/guild leaders/world 1sts choose a warrior as a main tank instead of paladin.
this cannot be true if paladins are superior. if paladins were equal and or superior to warrior main tanks, we would see a rough 50/50 distribution. we dont. because one class is clearly better for the task then the other.
there is only one logical answer, warriors are the better tanks.
Please explain to me simply without vitriol:
Why the overwhelmingly vast majority of raid leaders/group leaders/guild leaders/world 1sts choose a warrior as a main tank instead of paladin.
this cannot be true if paladins are superior. if paladins were equal and or superior to warrior main tanks, we would see a rough 50/50 distribution. we dont. because one class is clearly better for the task then the other.
there is only one logical answer, warriors are the better tanks.
- Ihealwpvp
- Senior Sergeant
Re: How do i do tankadin?
Ihealwpvp wrote:none of the protection pallies in this thread has been able to provide a simple logical answer to this statement, you have been avoiding this question for the whole thread....
Please explain to me simply without vitriol:
Why the overwhelmingly vast majority of raid leaders/group leaders/guild leaders/world 1sts choose a warrior as a main tank instead of paladin.
this cannot be true if paladins are superior. if paladins were equal and or superior to warrior main tanks, we would see a rough 50/50 distribution. we dont. because one class is clearly better for the task then the other.
there is only one logical answer, warriors are the better tanks.
It's because Paladins got pigeonholed into heal/buff bots primarily due to retards like you who while never having played the class, claim to know everything there is to do about them.
- Theloras
- Knight-Lieutenant
Re: How do i do tankadin?
that is a logical fallacy. Most raid leaders/guild leaders arent retarded and tend to take their creation (ie their guild) seriously. You cannot be a world 1st pve guild if you are retarded/not serious.
you have not provided a candid rationale answer without any sass/vitriol.
so again please tell me with a logical answer with no anger. why more or less every raid leader/guild leader chooses a warrior as their main tank.
there is no way around the answer. one class is better than the other for the task of main tanking. If paladins were equal or superior, there would be much more of them. but there aren't because they are subpar/not ideal main tanks. There is a reason why you dont see people ask/make a thread "Can warriors main tank?" and there is a reason why prot pallies were MT viable in TBC. and there is a reason why prot paladins are a novelty/rare/these types of threads exist.
ps. paladins were, and allways have been support. they are the buff class, they mirror shamans.
you have not provided a candid rationale answer without any sass/vitriol.
so again please tell me with a logical answer with no anger. why more or less every raid leader/guild leader chooses a warrior as their main tank.
there is no way around the answer. one class is better than the other for the task of main tanking. If paladins were equal or superior, there would be much more of them. but there aren't because they are subpar/not ideal main tanks. There is a reason why you dont see people ask/make a thread "Can warriors main tank?" and there is a reason why prot pallies were MT viable in TBC. and there is a reason why prot paladins are a novelty/rare/these types of threads exist.
ps. paladins were, and allways have been support. they are the buff class, they mirror shamans.
- Ihealwpvp
- Senior Sergeant
Re: How do i do tankadin?
Ihealwpvp wrote:that is a logical fallacy. Most raid leaders/guild leaders arent retarded and tend to take their creation (ie their guild) seriously. You cannot be a world 1st pve guild if you are retarded/not serious.
you have not provided a candid rationale answer without any sass/vitriol.
so again please tell me with a logical answer. why more or less every raid leader/guild leader chooses a warrior as their main tank.
ps. paladins were, and allways have been support. they are the buff class, they mirror shamans.
For the third time now, if you want to min/max then go play on Peenix with the try hards there - you will fit right in.
People choose a Warrior as their main tank cause it's easy and they've been spoon fed LOLRET and LOLPROT for 10 years now - people who want to play a Paladin other than being a holy buff bot enjoy the challenge of going against the grain and actually facing an uphill battle against close minded people and their mindsets.
If wanted things to be easy I would still be playing retail and doing LFD and LFR...
PS - Blizzard never made "support" classes - but don't take my word for it - that's what they specifically said publicly.
- Theloras
- Knight-Lieutenant
Re: How do i do tankadin?
there will be min-maxers in any gaming community. what server i choose to play on is neither here nor there. and i guess you basically just agreed with me in your own way. Paladins are sub-par/uphill road for tanking/not ideal.
world first pve guilds dont care about LOLRET/LOLPROT. even serious guild leaders/raid leaders dont factor that in. its much simpler than that. they just pick whats best.
so far, the entire conversation has boiled down to "guild leaders/raid leaders/everyone else is stupid/dumb/wrong for thinking paladins are sub par tanks" at the essence and core of every prot paladin rebuttal in this thread, thats what it comes down to. everyone else is wrong, paladins are the best. and the 1,000,0000-2,000,000 vanilla raiders are all wrong, and im right.
thats basically toddler logic
people are not closed minded when they look at all the tanking classes, all their abilities, all the gear options and choose the one that is superior choice. thats kind of the opposite of close minded.
what is close minded is when someone arrogantly and ignorantly with pride refusses to accept the fact that they are simply wrong. especially when faced with math, logic, and well... an entire demographic of raiders.../guild leaders.
prot paladins are the inferior main tank spec when compared to prot warriors. its just the way it is.
ps. you said
" Viorus wrote:
Well said by most people in this thread. DPS = rogue, hunter, lock, mage. Paladin is support"
"Which I fully advocate - Paladins should support their team ......."
world first pve guilds dont care about LOLRET/LOLPROT. even serious guild leaders/raid leaders dont factor that in. its much simpler than that. they just pick whats best.
so far, the entire conversation has boiled down to "guild leaders/raid leaders/everyone else is stupid/dumb/wrong for thinking paladins are sub par tanks" at the essence and core of every prot paladin rebuttal in this thread, thats what it comes down to. everyone else is wrong, paladins are the best. and the 1,000,0000-2,000,000 vanilla raiders are all wrong, and im right.
thats basically toddler logic
people are not closed minded when they look at all the tanking classes, all their abilities, all the gear options and choose the one that is superior choice. thats kind of the opposite of close minded.
what is close minded is when someone arrogantly and ignorantly with pride refusses to accept the fact that they are simply wrong. especially when faced with math, logic, and well... an entire demographic of raiders.../guild leaders.
prot paladins are the inferior main tank spec when compared to prot warriors. its just the way it is.
ps. you said
" Viorus wrote:
Well said by most people in this thread. DPS = rogue, hunter, lock, mage. Paladin is support"
"Which I fully advocate - Paladins should support their team ......."
- Ihealwpvp
- Senior Sergeant