Retribution Pre-Raid and Raid BiS - Updated for ZG Release

[smilkovpetko]

If you don't like it, feel free to prove to me with whatever math you can come up with what it is you are trying to say.

But before you do, just know that you are wrong.

Funny you are calling me wrong ? Playing this Class 10 years and someone call me wrong haha
(kids job)

Beside the links that i gave you ® by Blizzard Forums back in 2006

https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hp ... 9804_o.jpg

Let me give you your Math

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/Fight ... ssLimit=Pa

Golemagg (Single Target nuking)

Top Paladin DPS:

http://realmplayers.com/CharacterViewer ... =Shinatawa

Gear Used :

Epic PVP + T1 + T2
(All items consist Intellect) (neck,cloak,fingers for hit cap) same way as i explained.

2nd Paladin DPS :

http://realmplayers.com/CharacterViewer ... r=Talesavo

Same or similar Itemization used : with intellect and Spell damage.

(This was for Nostalrius original)

Now back to Peenix

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/Fight ... ssLimit=Pa

Top DPS

http://realmplayers.com/CharacterViewer ... horminator

Only because he have Might of Menethil he got minor advantage over me

Used gear (exactly as i explained)

2nd DPS

http://realmplayers.com/CharacterViewer ... Killerduki

Used gear (exactly as i explained)

All those that use Items and Gear like your Guide (priority Warrior Gear) are at least twice lower DPS on 1 Target than mentioned Paladins.


Example :

http://realmplayers.com/CharacterViewer ... r=Banochka

Gear based like your explanation

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/Fight ... ssLimit=Pa

Barely 300 DPS . Unlike the ones that used similar ways like i explained they did 600 DPS.

Here is your Proof.

[DrearyYew]

You do realize that all of those players you pointed to with SP gear are in their PvP gear, right?

Intellect does not increase our damage. What increases our damage is the use of Mana Potions and Dark Runes if you really want to push it to judge on cooldown.

I'm going to discard your evidence on Peenix because... well, Peenix. There are so many bugs it's hard to keep on top of things, but I understand the point you are trying to make.

SP and Int are valuable stats, but they are not worth dropping Strength or Agility for. Blizzard finally gave us a well optimized set for Ret with the Avenger's Battlegear in AQ40, and that's exactly why we see our damage skyrocket. It is at this point that we take Avenger's over whatever is Fury/Arms BiS because Avenger's finally gives us every stat we want on the same piece.

Gear with SP on it is obviously going to be better than gear without SP on it. Problem is, we don't get what we want until AQ.

[smilkovpetko]

You are pointing Avenger , let me tell you which sets are our official Retribution sets that Blizzard Gave.

d1<pvp blue<d2<t2<pvp epic<t2.5</naxx offset

This is our sets official as retri 1.9+

Agility as i said it is 2ndary stat until we get to 26% Crit + 6% by consumes (more than that is useless)

And why Strength suck?.

Because our Abilities since 1.9 patch and more got revamp and replaced with additional Spell Coefficient .
(example seal of command pre 1.9 patch was 100% weap damage and didn't scale with SP).
(1.9 patch Seal of Command was nerf down to 70% weap damage but with additional SP coefficient).

In before 1.9 our Damage was more into Physical Damage instead Holy Damage.

Intellect is by far more superior than Str/Agi and SP is by far more superior than Str.

Reason : we use 1.12 Patch Abilities and not 1.8

Since you trash talk - Top 2 are using PVP sets which you "downvalued them into low degree" to your list.
Their PVP sets are filled with Intellect,Spell Damage.

Top 3-4-5 are using Intellect gear and doesn't use PVP sets . Their gear is more Intellect than your "downvalued items"

The only person that uses exactly your Gear Stats is number 6 which is much much lower than all others who uses Intellect gear.

I agree this is not Peenix , in Peenix our Abilities (SoC , JoC) didn't work with Spell Damage , then you see here they do and Spell Damage Value goes much higher than str .

Intellect in any case is far more valuable stat because we can spam our Abilities on CD (max rank for max damage efficiency) and keep uptime Vengeance proc .

If you are not using Intellect , you will be oom 80% of the fight and your dps will be extremely terrible.

Each 3 Minutes fight we need minimum 9000 Mana if we want to top our damage.
To make that happen
There is Dungeon 1 set, ZG Sets , offsets Int Gear , we have Tier 1 (currently gives lot int and str) , PvP gear and so on .

[smilkovpetko]

Consecration Max Rank = 505 Mana each 8 seconds
22 Consecrations over 3 minutes = 11k Mana

Seal of Command Max Rank = 210 Mana
21 Seal of Command for max Rank Judgement on Judge CD= 4410 Mana

Seal of the Crusader = 160 mana (used once only for buff)

Judgement = 76 Mana each 8 seconds (with improved)
22 (21 command and 1 crus) Judgements over 3 minutes = 1672 Mana

Over fight = 22 Consecration 11k mana , 1 Seal of the Crusader 160 mana , 21 Seal of Command (max rank) 4410 mana , 22 Judgements 1672 Mana .

You need over 17242 Mana

How you achieve that?
With Intellect Gear you get 6k Mana unbuffed + 3k Mana from Buffs/Consumes ,

9k + mana

2x Demonic Rune = 3k Mana
2x Major Mana Potion = 4502 Mana

7k Mana by Runes/Pots + 9k Mana by Intellect Gear = 16 k Mana over 3 Minutes you have
1k By regeneration etc.

Now you see that with Intellect Gear you will have enough mana for max rank Abilities on CD for Max DPS and full time Burst.

Without Intellect Gear your mana will gone at 50% of your fight and there you will do extremely low damage based on swings and command proc only .

This was calculated on 3 minutes fight, on longer fights like Vaelestraz,Neffarian,Ragnaros,Chromaggus,Onyxia,Golemagg The mana requirement will be higher and your DPS will be even lower.

The only boss that benefit (without intellect gear) is 2nd Boss in BWL . Nobody else.

This is the reason why you go full Intellect gear.

As i said before Stats Prio should be :

Int>Agi>SP>Str (until 26% crit) 6% we get from consumes/buffs
Int>Sp>Str>Agi (once we get 26% crit)

[smilkovpetko]

Downrank Abilities = Extremely Low Damage and Extremely poor DPS.
Downranking Abilities also receive Damage Coefficient Penalty

Evidence is the top 5 DPS to 1 Target i have posted (all use Intellect Gear) and only top 2 (use PVP Gear which is BiS) .
The gear you are Preaching (Warrior Gear) is used by DPS that is doing Extremely Low Damage on Raidstat (the number 6 which is twice lower than the top 2 and way lower than top 5).

"That is 2nd Evidence you try to deny" ^
"First Evidence you denying is the Screenshot of my DPS in Raids"

Edited for you.

That was last from me, and what i can tell you that this guide gear list is terrible because the Topic Creator have no clue what is our top DPS Gear for Retribution Pve.

[DrearyYew]

Downrank Consecrate to R1 and spam without any worries about mana. Downrank Command to R1 if you aren't judging since the judge is the only increase in damage with rank. Uprank Consecrate as your mana regeneration allows.

Mana pool isn't what matters. What matters is your mana regeneration. Like you said, use Dark Runes and Mana Pots. You don't need a massive mana pool to cast spells, just ways of regenerating mana.

[justclassic]

Crit Cap (you don't need more than this because it is pointless) is 32% . (you will never crit more than 32% in raids due to glancing blows ) .

I don't think that 32% is the hard cap for crit with a 2h weapon.

As long as we stand behind the boss it looks like this:

100%
- 40 % (glancing blows vs boss/lvl 63) -- can't be reduced
- 05 % (dodge) -- can't be reduced effectively
- 08 % (miss) -- could be reduced by hit rating
=
47 %

So we could have up to 47% crit, while having no hit and standing behind the boss, before anymore crit would be worthless.

This would be 55% if we have hitcap (8%).

1 Spell damage = 2 Strength = 4 Attack Power

I have never calculated any SP vs AP , but I think that 2 STR would never equal 4 AP as every Ret is going to take "devine strength".

I also think that kings should be considered as we are talking about a raid scenario which usually has us buffed to the limit.

Also you should never use Seal of the Crusade, it is bad and poor DPS.

Currently it is really really bugged making it definitely an alternative for command in certain situations.

These is one point about playing a paladin though. There are only 3 statistics that improve all aspects of a paladin. These three statistics are Stamina, Intellect, and +Spell Damage. As such, I recommend all paladins try to keep a strong foundation in the first two statistics, and start looking for +Spell Damage gear the moment you turn 60 and it is more easily available to you.

I think this one is tricky, as I believe just because a single stat increases all of our abilities it doesn't necessarily mean that it is the best/better one.

Lets say we have stat A and stat B as an example.

Stat A increases our physical and magical dmg by 1.

Stat B increases our physical dmg by 3, but doesn't increase our magical dmg.

Even though stat A increased all of our dmg sources , stat B would give us a bigger Dmg-boost.

145 intellect = 2175 mana + 10% from divine int = 2392 mana = (almost 4 consecrations) .

2393 / 565 = 4,24 consecrations. So it's not almost 4, it definitely are 4 and even a little bit more.

200 Strength / 33% = 66 damage to consecration

Consecration on nostalrius currently scales 33% of AP.

200 Str = 400 AP = 440 (devine strength)

440 * 33% = 145 dmg / 8 = 18 dmg per tick extra.

4 consecrations = 1536 dmg from int vs 66 dmg from str.

It's 145 dmg from STR see above.

Also we have to consider that these 145 dmg don't buff a single consecration, but every! consecration casted during that fight.

So let's put that in a formular:

(Dmg of the 4 extra consecration) / (dmg gain from str) = number of consecrations that need to be cast

With your example:

( 1536 ) / ( 145 ) = 10,59 consecration

This means that if we at least cast 11 consecrations within the fight, we would benefit more from having 145 extra dmg on each consecration than from being able to cast 15 (4 extra) consecrations.

You did a mana calculation with pots and runes which states, that we should easily manage to cast 22 casts in a 3min fight. I know we wouldn't have that much mana as in your example as we would use str gear but I'm sure we would easily get more than 11 casts off.

136 Spell Damage = 27 damage to Seal of Command
280 Attack Power (140 Strength) = 20 Damage to Seal of Command

140 Str = 154 (devine strength) = 169 (kings)

Okay we don't always have kings so let's go with the 154 STR.

154 * 2 = 308 AP

308 AP / 14 = 22 DPS on raw white hits.

This is now multiplied with your weapon speed. You assumed 3.5 .

22 * 3,5 = 77 Dmg on a raw normal white swing.

Of this 77 SoC now gets 70%.

77 * 70% = 53,9 dmg to SoC.

280 Attack Power = (assuming 3.5 speed) 70 damage which 15% is reduced by Glancing blows (with human racial) = 60 damage

It is true that a glancing blow would deal 15% decreased dmg with 305 weapon rating.

But glancing blows only happen with a probability of 40%.

This leads to:

70 - ( 70 * ( 15% * 40% )) = 70 - ( 70 * 6% ) = 70 - 4,2 = 65,8 dmg

Also if you calculated glancing you would also need to calculate crit as it would double the dmg if a crit happens.

(maelstrom scale with spell damage)

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Darkmoon_ ... did=339109

Yes it might scale with spell power.
BUT!
Having a fixed % procc rate (not ppm like SoC or crusader enchant for example) makes dmc maelstrom a lot less attractive to slow 2h wielders compared to rogues, fury or feral , as a 2h wielder will get a lot less proccs.

[smilkovpetko]

You are trying to do "corrections for me" the reason i reply again to fix stuffs.

As long as we stand behind the boss it looks like this:

100%
- 40 % (glancing blows vs boss/lvl 63) -- can't be reduced
- 05 % (dodge) -- can't be reduced effectively
- 08 % (miss) -- could be reduced by hit rating
=
47 %

That formula is for 1hand and duel wield . Also it is only if you stay behind , not rear or front.

It is not same as 2hand. 2hand is different formula with more chance to dodge/miss.

And for your information if you lack 5 weapon skills , the dodge and miss chance will be increased.

The formula you gave is for hit cap and 310 weap skill , which in 305 weap skill will be different (with more dodge/miss) .

5 weapon skill = 0.4% each point = 2% extra dodge , 2% extra miss by defense
(e.c bosses uses 310 def skill) so your weapon should match their skill in order to reduce the avoidance by boss .

Assuming you have +5 hit, the numbers become...
5.6% block for say 80% damage (depends on a lot of things)
23.6% crit for 200% damage (impale doesnt work!)
40% glancing blow for 70% damage
30.8% no damage
so per swing its an average of .056 * .8 + .236 *2 + .4 * .7
= 79.68% of your damage per swing

With +10 skill its
5.2% block for say 80% damage (depends on a lot of things)
20.2% crit for 200% damage (impale doesnt work!)
40% glancing blow for 100% damage
34.6% no damage
so per swing its an average of .052 * .8 + .202 *2 + .4 * 1
= 84.56% of your damage per swing
(84.56 - 69.68)/69.68 = 21.3% white damage increase with +10 skill

With +5 hit and +10 skill its
5.2% block for say 80% damage (depends on a lot of things)
25.2% crit for 200% damage (impale doesnt work!)
40% glancing blow for 100% damage
34.6% no damage
so per swing its an average of .052 * .8 + .252 *2 + .4 * 1
= 94.56% of your damage per swing
(94.56 - 79.68)/79.68 = 18.7% white damage increase with +10 skill

but I think that 2 STR would never equal 4 AP as every Ret is going to take "devine strength".

2 Str will always be 4 AP , divine strength is giving extra strength , but value remain same.
so 20 str will give you extra 2 str by divine str and that will result into 44 ap.

Currently it is really really bugged making it definitely an alternative for command in certain situations.

You mention this about Seal of the Crusade .

Let me explain you why Command is better :
Proc from Command increase the uptime by Vengeance, same as Judgement of Command

Seal of the Crusade will have much lower uptime on Vengeance compare to JoC on CD and Command procs.

The damage of command is by nature higher than Crusade if weapon is 3.5+ speed (current bugged state crusader) but because of the Vengeance procs , Command have higher value even in this state.

This means that if we at least cast 11 consecrations within the fight, we would benefit more from having 145 extra dmg on each consecration than from being able to cast 15 (4 extra) consecrations.

Do you know how much Consecrations without Intellect Gear you can use over 3 minutes????

Maximum 4 of them....... (talking about max ranks because lower ranks have coefficient penalty)

With Intellect Gear you can use 11 Consecrations over 3 minutes (without any single mana consume).

This is now multiplied with your weapon speed. You assumed 3.5 .

22 * 3,5 = 77 Dmg on a raw normal white swing.

Of this 77 SoC now gets 70%.

77 * 70% = 53,9 dmg to SoC.

You are calculating White swings with Command which is wrong.

White swings gained by Attack Power will never add any damage to Seal of Command.
Only Weapon Damage will increase the damage to Seal of Command.

Attack Power is = 14 AP = 1 damage to Command.

White swings increased by AP will never give damage to Command. Only Weapon.

Yes it might scale with spell power.
BUT!
Having a fixed % procc rate (not ppm like SoC or crusader enchant for example) makes dmc maelstrom a lot less attractive to slow 2h wielders compared to rogues, fury or feral , as a 2h wielder will get a lot less proccs.

Spamming any special Ability on CD increase the Proc % for this Trinket , this includes Seal of Command Procs and Judgement of Command on CD , Hammer of Wrath etc.


And the last evidence regarding Intellect which you and Dreary try to avoid is :

https://forum.nostalrius.org/viewtopic. ... 50#p200584

All those that use Intellect gear are Top DPS compare to those that use "Warrior Gear" are lowest in Ranks.

[Spatchi]

Nice quotes

[smilkovpetko]

Stats Weight :

35 Intellect by Consecration will give you : 48 DPS that get increased (even higher) by Str and SP at equal rate (can also be increased by Sanctity aura)
35 Intellect by Judgement of Command max rank will give you : 25 DPS (that can multiple by crit) and get boosted by SP (can also be increased by Sanctity aura)
35 Intellect at Execution by Hammer of Wrath gives you 92 DPS (that can get increased by crit) and get boosted by SP (can also be increased by Sanctity aura)
35 Intellect at Undeads by Exorcism gives you 38 DPS (that can get increased by spell crit) and get boosted by SP (can also be increased by Sanctity aura)


There is the Formula from Intellect weight.

35 Str gives you 5 Damage to Command / 3.5 = 1.4 DPS (that can multiple by crit and increase by Sanctity aura)
35 Str gives you 17.50 Damage to White Hits / 3.5 = 5 DPS (that can multiple by crit) / 15 by Glancing blows = 4.7 DPS (that can multiple by crit)
35 Str gives you 23 damage to Consecration / 8 = 2.8 DPS (that can increase by Sanctity aura)

There is the Formula from Strength weight

35 SP gives you 7 Damage to Command / 3.5 = 2 DPS (that can multiple by crit)
35 SP gives you 11.5 Damage to Consecration / 8 = 1.4 DPS (that can increase by Sanctity aura)
35 SP gives you 15 Damage to Judgement of Command / 8 = 1.8 DPS (that can multiple by crit and increase by Sanctity aura)
35 SP gives you 15 Damage to Exorcism / 15 = 1 DPS (that can increase by crit and by Sanctity aura)
35 SP gives you 15 Damage to Hammer of Wrath / 6 = 2.5 DPS (that can increase by crit and by Sanctity aura)

There is the Formula from Spell Damage weight

Did i missed anything important for Retri ?

Here are your Stats Weight and DPS .