Retribution Pre-Raid and Raid BiS - Updated for ZG Release

[justclassic]

That formula is for 1hand and duel wield . Also it is only if you stay behind , not rear or front.

It is not same as 2hand. 2hand is different formula with more chance to dodge/miss.

And for your information if you lack 5 weapon skills , the dodge and miss chance will be increased.

The formula you gave is for hit cap and 310 weap skill , which in 305 weap skill will be different (with more dodge/miss) .

5 weapon skill = 0.4% each point = 2% extra dodge , 2% extra miss by defense
(e.c bosses uses 310 def skill) so your weapon should match their skill in order to reduce the avoidance by boss .

Every fucking meele strike in the game uses the same combat table to be calculated.

Only difference between 1h / 2h / dual-wield is that dual wield gets 19% miss penalty while 1h / 2h dont.

1 Point of weaponskill = 0.04% to crit / hit / not-dodged / not-parried / not-blocked and not 0.4%

Block and Parry is irrelevant as we should always stand behind the boss.

So 5 Points of Weaponsskill are only 0.2 % and not 2% as you stated.

Your own source you quoted even states that:

Assuming you have +5 hit, the numbers become...
5.6% block for say 80% damage (depends on a lot of things)
23.6% crit for 200% damage (impale doesnt work!)
40% glancing blow for 70% damage
30.8% no damage
so per swing its an average of .056 * .8 + .236 *2 + .4 * .7
= 79.68% of your damage per swing

With +10 skill its
5.2% block for say 80% damage (depends on a lot of things)
20.2% crit for 200% damage (impale doesnt work!)
40% glancing blow for 100% damage
34.6% no damage
so per swing its an average of .052 * .8 + .202 *2 + .4 * 1
= 84.56% of your damage per swing
(84.56 - 69.68)/69.68 = 21.3% white damage increase with +10 skill

With +5 hit and +10 skill its
5.2% block for say 80% damage (depends on a lot of things)
25.2% crit for 200% damage (impale doesnt work!)
40% glancing blow for 100% damage
34.6% no damage
so per swing its an average of .052 * .8 + .252 *2 + .4 * 1
= 94.56% of your damage per swing
(94.56 - 79.68)/79.68 = 18.7% white damage increase with +10 skill

2 Str will always be 4 AP , divine strength is giving extra strength , but value remain same.
so 20 str will give you extra 2 str by divine str and that will result into 44 ap.

No. AP is a stat on itself. There are Items that contain +40 AP. An Item with 20 Strength will allways be better than that for a ret.

2 STR = 4.4 AP (devine strength) or 4.84 AP (devine strength + kings )

You mention this about Seal of the Crusade .

Let me explain you why Command is better :
Proc from Command increase the uptime by Vengeance, same as Judgement of Command

Seal of the Crusade will have much lower uptime on Vengeance compare to JoC on CD and Command procs.

The damage of command is by nature higher than Crusade if weapon is 3.5+ speed (current bugged state crusader) but because of the Vengeance procs , Command have higher value even in this state.

Crusader allows us to use fast weapons making Vengeance uptime better.

If using slow weapon SoC + Judgement spam has better vengeance uptime.

Dont know if there are fast raid loot weapons , though.

If we figth a target with almost 0 Armor Crusader outperforms SoC in terms of dmg.

Do you know how much Consecrations without Intellect Gear you can use over 3 minutes????

Maximum 4 of them....... (talking about max ranks because lower ranks have coefficient penalty)

With Intellect Gear you can use 11 Consecrations over 3 minutes (without any single mana consume).

You made a list about mana-management yourself some posts above.

A paladin with no-int Gear, full buffs and usage of consumables is easily able to cast enough Max Rank Consecrations. Your own list states that as using Full-INT-Gear compared to no-int-gear is like a difference of 4-5k mana.

Also since we have STR we could cast like Rank 3 consecration and deal the same dmg than a rank5 consecration without STR-Gear.

Also your phrase about down-grading is wrong. There are like 4 Rules:

1. Spells are getting coefficient based on their casttime or on their duration.

2. Spells never get more than 100%.

3. Spells below lvl 20 dont go for rule nr. 1 and get decreased %.

4. Some Spells have their own made % which ignore rule nr.1 and nr. 2.

==> All ranks of consecration scale exactly the same with SP and AP. ( I know its not supposed to scale with AP but it currently does)

This makes lower ranks increasingly better in Terms of Dmg/per Mana the more Dmg you get from AP/SP.

You are calculating White swings with Command which is wrong.

White swings gained by Attack Power will never add any damage to Seal of Command.
Only Weapon Damage will increase the damage to Seal of Command.

Attack Power is = 14 AP = 1 damage to Command.

White swings increased by AP will never give damage to Command. Only Weapon.

This is so much wrong and you should know that yourself.

If you dont believe me than equip a lvl 1 twohanded weapon with your paladin and tell me how much dmg your SoC does. If you say it only scales with Weapon Dmg than SoC would do like 5 Dmg. I dont think that you truely believe that yourself.

14 AP = 1 Weapon DPS = *AttackSpeed = WeaponDmgGainedFromAP
f.e.
28 AP = 2 Weapon DPS = *3.5 Swing timer = 7 WeaponDmgGainedFromAP = 4.9 DMGtoSoC

Spamming any special Ability on CD increase the Proc % for this Trinket , this includes Seal of Command Procs and Judgement of Command on CD , Hammer of Wrath etc.

1. This trinket is supposed to procc only from meele-strikes (Whitehits , SoC , Backstab or Execute f.e.) It should not procc from spells such as Judgement or Hammer of Wrath.

See tooltip and see text:
http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Darkmoon_ ... did=339113

2. Even if it proccs of special attacks ( SoC , Backstab or Execute) the procc-chance is NOT! increased. It increased the amount of proccs in a given time but it doesnt increase the procc-chance.

And the last evidence regarding Intellect which you and Dreary try to avoid is :

https://forum.nostalrius.org/viewtopic. ... 50#p200584

All those that use Intellect gear are Top DPS compare to those that use "Warrior Gear" are lowest in Ranks.

Turn in Talesavos Stream which is #2 in that golemagg post and check his gear during raiding.

Or check the item history of shinatawa. (He got Lionheart-Helm) Why would he invest in it if he could get EpicPvP or any other stuff since you say warrior items would be soooo bad for rets.

[apocalypsa]

Above poster explained it pretty well with one small caveat: JoC (should) count as a melee attack and proc stuff. It also uses melee hit.

Oh, and a big one. According to this thread, weapon skill actually lowers miss chance for raid bosses.

[smilkovpetko]

Intellect is and always will be our Highest Stat DPS.


35 Intellect by Consecration will give you : 48 DPS that get increased (even higher) by Str and SP at equal rate (can also be increased by Sanctity aura)
35 Intellect by Judgement of Command max rank will give you : 25 DPS (that can multiple by crit) and get boosted by SP (can also be increased by Sanctity aura)
35 Intellect at Execution by Hammer of Wrath gives you 92 DPS (that can get increased by crit) and get boosted by SP (can also be increased by Sanctity aura)
35 Intellect at Undeads by Exorcism gives you 38 DPS (that can get increased by spell crit) and get boosted by SP (can also be increased by Sanctity aura)


There is the Formula from Intellect weight.

35 Str gives you 5 Damage to Command / 3.5 = 1.4 DPS (that can multiple by crit and increase by Sanctity aura)
35 Str gives you 17.50 Damage to White Hits / 3.5 = 5 DPS (that can multiple by crit) / 15 by Glancing blows = 4.7 DPS (that can multiple by crit)
35 Str gives you 23 damage to Consecration / 8 = 2.8 DPS (that can increase by Sanctity aura)

There is the Formula from Strength weight

35 SP gives you 7 Damage to Command / 3.5 = 2 DPS (that can multiple by crit)
35 SP gives you 11.5 Damage to Consecration / 8 = 1.4 DPS (that can increase by Sanctity aura)
35 SP gives you 15 Damage to Judgement of Command / 8 = 1.8 DPS (that can multiple by crit and increase by Sanctity aura)
35 SP gives you 15 Damage to Exorcism / 15 = 1 DPS (that can increase by crit and by Sanctity aura)
35 SP gives you 15 Damage to Hammer of Wrath / 6 = 2.5 DPS (that can increase by crit and by Sanctity aura)

There is the Formula from Spell Damage weight

Did i missed anything important for Retri ?

Here are your Stats Weight and DPS .

Overall :

35 Int gives you :

203 DPS (including undeads)
165 DPS (non undeads)

35 Str Gives you :

8.9 DPS on Everything

35 SP Gives you :

8.7 DPS (including undeads)
7.7 DPS (non undeads)

With Sanctity aura 35 SP gains 8.4 DPS (non undeads) , 9.4 DPS (including undeads)
With Sanctity aura 35 Str gains 9.1 DPS on Everything
With Sanctity Aura 35 Int gains 181 DPS (non undeads) , 223 DPS (including undeads)

Keep in Mind that Consecration in Retail Vanilla never work with Strength .

(without consecration bug) 35 Str will go down to 6.1 DPS and with Sanctity aura 6.7 DPS which is under SP.

The only beneficial Bug is Consecration otherwise you have now Formula.


Intellect is calculated with MAX Rank Abilities.

The DPS by Command will Variate and will go into lower DPS than Explained (depend on procs)

I had open conversation with Talesavo .

Turn in Talesavos Stream which is #2 in that golemagg post and check his gear during raiding.

Or check the item history of shinatawa. (He got Lionheart-Helm) Why would he invest in it if he could get EpicPvP or any other stuff since you say warrior items would be soooo bad for rets.

He was using that Helm in order to get the hit cap , he also confirmed that Intellect is better than your fail Warrior Gear with STR. (feel free to talk with him for confirmation) .

[justclassic]

Above poster explained it pretty well with one small caveat: JoC (should) count as a melee attack and proc stuff. It also uses melee hit.

Oh, and a big one. According to this thread, weapon skill actually lowers miss chance for raid bosses.

Oh, I wasn't aware that JoC is counted as a meele strike. Thanks

I wrote that weapon skill increases hit by 0.04% which is equivalent to reducing the chance to miss him .

[justclassic]

Intellect is and always will be our Highest Stat DPS.


35 Intellect by Consecration will give you : 48 DPS that get increased (even higher) by Str and SP at equal rate (can also be increased by Sanctity aura)
35 Intellect by Judgement of Command max rank will give you : 25 DPS (that can multiple by crit) and get boosted by SP (can also be increased by Sanctity aura)
35 Intellect at Execution by Hammer of Wrath gives you 92 DPS (that can get increased by crit) and get boosted by SP (can also be increased by Sanctity aura)
35 Intellect at Undeads by Exorcism gives you 38 DPS (that can get increased by spell crit) and get boosted by SP (can also be increased by Sanctity aura)

Intellect has 0 influence on the damage dealt by an ability. So as long as we are able to cast spells there is 0 dmg gained from intellect. If a fight gets increasingly long additional intellect might let us cast more spells then a paladin without int. That would increase our overall dps but not the dps of the ability.

How can you say that 35 intellect increases the dps of all of that abilities? The abilities still deal the same dmg regardless of you having 0 or 1000000 intellect.

These 35 int would be like 635 mana (with talent and kings) , it would be consumed by one max rank consecration and one judgement . And if it's used it doesn't give anything. It doesn't increase the dps of any ability ever, but it can increase our overall dps if it allows us to use more abilities than we could before.

35 Str gives you 5 Damage to Command / 3.5 = 1.4 DPS (that can multiple by crit and increase by Sanctity aura)
35 Str gives you 17.50 Damage to White Hits / 3.5 = 5 DPS (that can multiple by crit) / 15 by Glancing blows = 4.7 DPS (that can multiple by crit)
35 Str gives you 23 damage to Consecration / 8 = 2.8 DPS (that can increase by Sanctity aura)

There is the Formula from Strength weight

WHAT ?!

it's not like multiple people on this forum told you allready that your STR numbers are completely off.

35 Str = 84 AP (Talent + king) = 6 DpsGainedOnWeaponDmg * 3,5 = 21 dmg gained = 14,7 dmg on SoC procc

If you now want to make a dps value of that you would need to uses the following formular and not whatever misterious thing you used there.
(14,7 * 7) / 60 = 1,715 DpsGainOnSoC

35 Str would also be like 6dps on the weapon.

And 27 for consecration with talent and kings.

[smilkovpetko]

Don't talk nonsense ........ You are trash talking now.

Seal of Command is only Benefit by NORMAL WEAPON DAMAGE AND not the Attack Power/STR Gained on "White hits" .!

Seal of Command is 70% of Weapon Damage + (14 AP = 1 Dmg) + (7 SP = 1.4 Dmg)

Are you stupid to deny Evidence and Formula ?

White hits Gained by Attack Power and Strength does not increase Command Damage..


http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Seal_of_C ... did=249861
Revision as of 20:59, September 18, 2006 Patch 1.12


Gives the Paladin a chance to deal additional Holy damage equal to 70% of normal weapon damage.

Intellect has 0 influence on the damage dealt by an ability. So as long as we are able to cast spells there is 0 dmg gained from intellect. If a fight gets increasingly long additional intellect might let us cast more spells then a paladin without int. That would increase our overall dps but not the dps of the ability.

No Intellect = No mana = No DPS By Consecration,Judgement,Hammer etc etc etc .
Intellect = Mana = Spam Abilities = 200 Extra DPS only by this Stat and will get boosted/Increased by SP and STR.

200 DPS By Intellect + Weapon DPS + Command DPS by Weapon + Str/SP DPS + Multiplied by Crits.

Without Intellect you are never going to do more than 300 DPS since you will never have enough Str for That. With Intellect you can do Much more and your DPS will Scale 200 + x By Weapon white swing + x By Command proc by Weapon Damage + x By Str + x By SP * 2 By Crit.

Evidence :

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/Fight ... ssLimit=Pa

All those that use Intellect does Top DPS .

All those that use "STR" Warrior gear are Trash and no Exception as Evidence lies here.

To provide that DPS you always need 14-17k Mana .

Anything under 14k Mana over 3 Minutes is just crap 200-300 DPS .
To achieve that 14k Mana you need Intellect Gear and Consumes.

it's not like multiple people on this forum told you allready that your STR numbers are completely off.

Credits to Theloras :

STATS
Strength: Gives you attack power (scales at a rate of 1 STR = 2 AP) - Attack power increases the damage of your auto attacks and Seal of Command damage.

[apocalypsa]

Duki I think youre just misinterpreting the SoC text here. It reads normal weapon damage, aka your normal white swings. You're confusing it with base weapon damage, aka the numbers on your weapon.

This is also extremely easy to test in game so I don't really see why this is even a discussion.

[smilkovpetko]

Duki I think youre just misinterpreting the SoC text here. It reads normal weapon damage, aka your normal white swings. You're confusing it with base weapon damage, aka the numbers on your weapon.

This is also extremely easy to test in game so I don't really see why this is even a discussion.

Weapon Damage is Weapon Damage, it is not "normal Swings" .

If it was from "raw damage" it would been 70% of your normal damage instead Weapon Damage.

Even Wowwiki put those 2 stuffs in different meaning :

Normal Weapon Damage
Normal Swing

Those 2 are separated .

Evidence :

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Seal_of_C ... did=520167

Gives the Paladin a chance to deal additional Holy damage equal to 70% of normal weapon damage.

since if the normal swing crits and Vengeance is triggered, the Seal of Command proc will be affected by the buff.

Those two has nothing in common .

Seal of Command is and always will be 70% Weapon Damage independent of raw damage + 14 ap = 1 dmg + 7 sp 1.4 dmg.

And nothing else.

https://theholylight.wordpress.com/2008 ... f-blood-2/


Gives the Paladin a chance to deal additional Holy damage equal to 70% of normal weapon damage. Unleashing this Seal’s energy will judge an enemy, instantly causing 228 to 252 Holy damage, 456 to 504 if the target is stunned or incapacitated.

Now let’s put SoC on a well-geared Retribution spec Paladin with the following stats:
800-1000 damage (weapon damage)
Weapon Speed: 3.6
350 spelldamage
30% crit

Seal of Command damage range: 560-700 (average 630)

Ah, but SoC has a 29% spell coefficient (meaning 29% of your spelldamage is applied to any SoC proc). Plugging that in, we get: 29% of 350 = ~102

Seal of Command damage range: 662-802 (average 732)

So on average, with these stats, we can expect SoC to deal 732 damage on each proc. We also know that the proc rate on SoC is 7 per minute. Let’s plot this out over the course of a minute to see how much damage we do with SoC.

SoC Damage Formula: (Average Proc) * (Procs per minute)
(732) * (7) = 5,124

SoC Critical Damage Formula: 2 * ( (SoC Damage) * (Crit Chance / 100) ) = SoC Critical Damage
2 * ( (5,124) * (.3) ) = 3,074

SoC Damage Total Formula: ( SoC Damage – (SoC Damage * Crit Chance) + SoC Crit Damage ) = Total SoC Damage
( 5,124 – (1,537) + 3,074 ) = 6,671

Keep in mind that this doesn’t take into account any other skills, talents, resists, mitigation, etc, so this should only be used for comparison purposes. Now let’s take a look at Seal of Blood, using the same stats for our Paladin.

Tbc and Vanilla Command was same.

[apocalypsa]

On another note - I saw another ret paladin in my guild using Gordok Bracers of Power, because this list rates them twice as high as Battleborn Armbraces. But, in my spreadsheet I'm finding a very minor difference in favor of the Battleborns with SoC and in favor of Gordoks with SotC. Regardless, nothing as big as this list states.

Dreary, care to shed some light on this? Maybe one of us is over/underrating hit chance?

[DrearyYew]

There are other pieces of gear with much less trade-off for the +Hit than Battleborn, and as Ret, we only need 4% Hit from gear when using a Sword or Mace, or 5% when using an Axe. Anything higher is a waste of hit, since the cap for Abilities and White Swings for 2H is 8%. When Dual Wielding, 8% remains the cap for Abilities, but the White Swing cap is somewhere around 27% (I can't remember exactly what it is off the top of my head), which means that +Hit over the 8% "soft cap" is still an increase in DPS for Dual Wield.

It pretty much comes down to whether or not you are hit capped. If you aren't, then yes, Battleborn will be better than Gordok. My list provides the item weights for each item assuming you are hit capped, meaning that you need to take the items with the lowest difference in item weight to achieve hit cap. In the case of Battleborn vs Gordok, if you are already Hit capped, the Hit on Battleborn is completely wasted, so it becomes a debate of 1% Crit vs 17 Strength, in which the 17 Strength is much more valuable.

In another example, Crown of Destruction has an item weight of 84, where Lionheart Helm has an item weight of 83.56. The difference is minimal, but if you are hit capped without factoring in your helm, the better option would be Crown of Destruction. If you are not hit capped, you would take Lionheart Helm, since the effective item weight difference is only 0.44.

There's probably a better way to put it, sorry, my brain is jumbled up from finals.