Nostalrius Begins - Quality wow vanilla realm (1.12)

Hey,

so basicly the idea for this thread came up from a discussion smilkovpetko and I had in a different thread.
viewtopic.php?f=43&t=39906&start=10
I said that I believe Thunderfury + SotC would outperform Lok'Amir + SoR in terms of maximum threat.

Since threat is mostly an issue in an raid environment I'll compare both weapons while assuming a full raid buffed and consumable stacked paladin. Also I'll asume that he is wearing tank-gear which basicly consist of def/stam/avoidance. So no Spellpower or physical increasing stats like crit or hit.

What abilities will I include in this comparison:

White Swings
Consecration
Holy Shield
SoR
JoR

I will not include Exorcism since there are currently no bosses where it can be used. Also I will not include Hammer of Wrath as a character can not avoid (parry/Dodge/block) while casting spells which makes it a bad idea to use while tanking.

So lets get startet:
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Thunderfury:

53.9 DPS , 1,9 AS and a 25% chance to deal 300 Nature Dmg on Hit + Adding Debuffs (NR and ASreduce)

Lok'Amir:

41,9 DPS, 2,1 AS and 84 Spellpower

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Lok'Amir and SoR

Consecration: 84SP/24 = 3,5 Dmg/s = 3,5 * 1,9 = 6,65 Threat/s

SoR:(84SP+Flask+Oil)= 270SP / 10 = 27Dmg added = 51,3 ThreatPerSwing = 51,3/ 2,1AS = 24,43 Threat/s
Holy Shield: 84SP = 4Dmg (provided by smilkovpetko) = 10 Threat per Block = 2,5 Threat/s (Since most bosses have a 2 sec swing timer and block chance is ~50% with holy shield up)

JoR: 84SP = 42 Dmg (provided by smilkovpetko) = 135Dmg (which flask+oil) / 8 = 16,88 Threat/s

Since SoR will deal its basic dmg anyway we also have to add another ~40Dmg = 76 Threat = 36,19 Threat/s


This sums up to 86,60 Threat/s.

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Thunderfury + SotC

Consecration: 306AP/24 = 12,75 Dmg/s = 12,75 * 1,9 = 24,225 Threat/s

White Hits: 12DPS(difference) + 306AP = 33,86 DPS * 1,4 (Attack Speed Buff) = 47,39 DPS (neglecting Attack Speed Bonus to BaseStats and Buffs) = ~33 DPS after Boss armor = 33 Threat/s

Thunderfury Procc: 550 * 0,25 (Procc Chance) * 1/1,3571 (Attack Speed with Sotc) = 101,32 Threat/s

A Thunderfury procc generates roughly 550 Threat for a Paladin ( http://forums.elitistjerks.com/forums/t ... eneration/ ).


This sums up to 158,545 Threat/s.

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Okay so after seeing this numbers I think even with Exorcism Thunderfury would outperform Lok'Amir. Yet this is heavily influenced by the fact that Sotc (not reducing dmg) and Consecration (scaling with AP) are bugged.

Thunderfury Procc: 550 * 0,25 (Procc Chance) * 1/1,3571 (Attack Speed with Sotc) = 101,32 Threat/s

http://forums.elitistjerks.com/forums/t ... on/?page=1

Using a tank with defiance in defensive stance the damage effect will provide a total of 391 threat 300*0.9*(1.3+0.15) = 391.5

I am sorry but this does not say "Paladin"

300 Nature Damage for Paladin Tank is 300 Threats / 4 = 75 threats nothing more , nothing less.

Speaking about "SoTC" .

White Hits: 12DPS(difference) + 306AP = 33,86 DPS * 1,4 (Attack Speed Buff) = 47,39 DPS (neglecting Attack Speed Bonus to BaseStats and Buffs) = ~33 DPS after Boss armor = 33 Threat/s

vs

SoR:(84SP+Flask+Oil)= 270SP / 10 = 27Dmg added = 51,3 ThreatPerSwing = 51,3/ 2,1AS = 24,43 Threat/s
Holy Shield: 84SP = 4Dmg (provided by smilkovpetko) = 10 Threat per Block = 2,5 Threat/s (Since most bosses have a 2 sec swing timer and block chance is ~50% with holy shield up)

I am very sorry to disappoint you but you forgot to mention Judgement of the Crusade here.

1 swing Lok'Amir + JotC + SoR = 300 Threats divide to 2 seconds = 150 Threats per swing.

This Exclude calculation of "consecration etc etc" .

Now let me enlight you :

Consecration: 306AP/24 = 12,75 Dmg/s = 12,75 * 1,9 = 24,225 Threat/s

You calculated SoTC there

now add in the same Calculation JoTC here now as we "SoTC" Consecrate "JoTC" :"SoR"

you do forget that 24 Threats would go even higher than your math thanks to JoTC that will boost all our threats compare to your "SoTC + TF" which sources does not even say 500 tps for Paladin.

Thunderfury Procc: 550 * 0,25 (Procc Chance) * 1/1,3571 (Attack Speed with Sotc) = 101,32 Threat/s

This will be for Paladins 300*0.25 (procc chance) * 1/1,3571 (attack speed with sotc) = 55 Threats.

Sorry to disappoint you here.

150 Threats i do JoTC + SoR with Lok'Amir only and nothing else at all.

I am not currently home but when i go back in 5 days i will post all evidences with screenshots etc.....

1. Regarding thunderfury:
You didn't read the thunderfury post to the end. The number you mentioned is the dmg component of the procc. The debuff component also provides 350 threat per procc. So a warrior with defiance gets about 740 threat per procc. A warrior generates ~30% more threat per point of dmg than a paladin (except for holy of course).

740 ÷ 1,3 = 569,23 Threat per procc for a paladin. That is even more than I assumed.

2. Regarding Jotc:
I don't think that jotc is supposed to provide so much additional dmg to sor. Yet I don't know how it is on nost, but it should be calculated just like any other spell dmg bonus. So 140 jotc debuff should add ~14dmg to a SoR swing.(using the coefficent you provided in various threads).

That would be something between 2-3 additional threat/s. Thats not that much of an increase.

Also it is working correctly for consecration so I think it should work for sor as well. Still I don't know how it works here on nost. (I'll try that later today). But if it would add it's full 140 dmg than that would favor very fast swinging weapons a lot more than 2.1 lokamir unless the coefficent scales correctly with various attack speeds.

3.

smilkovpetko wrote: You calculated SoTC there

now add in the same Calculation JoTC here now as we "SoTC" Consecrate "JoTC" :"SoR"

you do forget that 24 Threats would go even higher than your math thanks to JoTC that will boost all our threats compare to your "SoTC + TF"

If we use the spells the way you posted the first consecration will not benefit from jotc I believe as consecration snapshots it's dmg when it's casted and doesn't update during its duration.

Also I didn't include jotc in consecration and holy shield because both methods would have it up and since I just wanted to point out the differences between both methods there was no reason to mention it here. So the only 2 spells being different would be SoR and JoR.

Okay,

so I went to searing gorge and did some testing with SoR , Spellpower and JotC with the spiders. I used 2 weapons. A 2,1AS like Lok'Amir and a 2,7AS to test if AS is currently influencing scaling for SoR.



Results:

SoR-BaseDmg is scaling with the AttackSpeed of the weapon. The 2.7 weapon dealt ~37,83% more base dmg. Which is good for the slow weapon as the ratio between 2.1 and 2.7 would be (2.7/2.1)-1 = 28,57%.

Yet both weapons recieved the same absolute scaling from my Jotc and my Spellpower on items.

This means that additional Spellpower or debuffs benefit faster weapons a lot more than slower weapons as they get the same absolute increase.

Also it was quite interesting that SpellpowerScaling was ~10% like smilkovpetko stated but Jotc didnt scale with ~10%. In my tests it scaled with ~24,22%.

If we use the spells the way you posted the first consecration will not benefit from jotc I believe as consecration snapshots it's dmg when it's casted and doesn't update during its duration.

Judgement goes instantly otherwise you gotta be noob to fail that , as addition you can always switch for 1 second seal in order to re use consecration - SoTC - Consecrate - JoTC - SoR (140 / 0.33 + 84 / 0.33 ) this will benefit lot more with Lok'Amir compare to TF

I just wanted to point out the differences between both methods there was no reason to mention it here. So the only 2 spells being different would be SoR and JoR.

Well you was so convict that "TF + SoTC" will do more threats but i already pointed out that Lok'Amir with JoTC + SoR would give 300 Threats per swing / 2.10 = 140++ threats per second

2. Regarding Jotc:
I don't think that jotc is supposed to provide so much additional dmg to sor. Yet I don't know how it is on nost, but it should be calculated just like any other spell dmg bonus. So 140 jotc debuff should add ~14dmg to a SoR swing.(using the coefficent you provided in various threads).

Check seal of righteous report on tuleup
it should not scale 10% , 10% was early at 2005 but it was changed over 10 times SoR function.
In fact JoTC is only working properly according the "Formula" reported but we have lazy Isvv to fix and deeply investigate SoR so they are whatever.

1. Regarding thunderfury:
You didn't read the thunderfury post to the end. The number you mentioned is the dmg component of the procc. The debuff component also provides 350 threat per procc. So a warrior with defiance gets about 740 threat per procc. A warrior generates ~30% more threat per point of dmg than a paladin (except for holy of course).

740 ÷ 1,3 = 569,23 Threat per procc for a paladin. That is even more than I assumed.

569 per proc / 4 = 142 Threats per second

Meanwhile Lok'Amir = JotC + SoR will provide 96 Holy Damage per swing + 150 Damage per White Swing =
332 threats / 2.1 = 158 threats per second

Consecration will benefit lot more using Lok'Amir because it is 84 SP+SoTC+JoTC

Holy Shield will be 10 Threats per Block Extra via Lok'Amir + JoTC

JoR will benefit 44 Holy Damage by lok'amir + 70 by JoTC = 114 Damage + 90% = 216 Threats / 8 = 27 Threats per Second

p.s now take into account Parry

Parry will reduce next swing down to 1.0 speed

TF+SoTC will benefit 0.13 per Parry

Lok'Amir + JotC+SoR will benefit 1.10 per Parry

That been explained in theory but i am not home otherwise will provide screenshot evidence.

Keep in mind when one-handed get fixed then SoR will benefit extra 10% damage.

Also I didn't include jotc in consecration and holy shield because both methods would have it up and since I just wanted to point out the differences between both methods there was no reason to mention it here. So the only 2 spells being different would be SoR and JoR.

You came here to "preach" how much better is TF+SoTC vs Lok'Amir but you didn't tough about JoTC and SoR methods would be better option via Spell Damage at any corner.

my rotation is : SoTC - Consecration - instant JoTC so we don't miss tick - SoR in combination with Sp Weapon.

Using the same way via TF will be even lower threats due to "Slow" hitting that will produce lower uptime per Proc compare to SoTC.

Next time before you skyrock please take into account the rotation and every single aspect.

TF is good Threats but Lok'Amir is better, TF in my eyes will match with Azuresong Sword via your rotation but anything better than Azuresong from MC will be SP Weapon > TF.

Great posts, guys! Great to finally see some numbers!

Duki, if Consc snapshots its damage, the. how would laying down Consc even a fraction of a second before JotC enable it to benefit from JotC?

@fishyOne It actually works I just tested it. If you judge before the first tick of consecration goes of it will benefit form Jotc. This works as Judgement is of the GDC.

smilkovpetko wrote:569 per proc / 4 = 142 Threats per second

Meanwhile Lok'Amir = JotC + SoR will provide 96 Holy Damage per swing + 150 Damage per White Swing =
332 threats / 2.1 = 158 threats per second

Why do you compare the procc to a white swing + SoR ? Wouldn't it be better to compare a white swing + procc to white swing + SoR ?!

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Anyway I'll take a new approach because I Still believe that TF+SotC is stronger. Also I want to point out that I didnt want to preach anything ever. I just believe that something is superior and try to finish the thought behind it.

So the scenario stays the same. We are fully raid buffed and consumables are used.

We have 1000 AP and 200 SP. We assume that the boss has 30% armor reduction.

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Weapon-Swing-Comparison

We will compare swinging Lok'Amir with SoR to swinging TF with Sotc.


Lok'Amir + SoR

BaseValue: 41,9 DPS
BaseValue+AP: 41,9DPS + (1000/14) = 113,33 DPS
BaseValue+AP+1HandSpec: 113,33 * 1,1 = 124,66 DPS
After Armor: 124,66 * 0,7 = 87,26 DPS
==> 87,26 Threat per Second

SoRDamagePerSwing: 100 ( Including BaseDmg + Spellpower(200) + JotC Debuff)
SoRDamagePerSecond: 100/2,1 = 47,62 DmgPerSecond
HolyThreatMultiplier: 47,62 DmgPerSecond * 1,9 = 90,48
==> 90,48 Threat per Second

Lok'Amir + SoR: 87,26 + 90,48 = 177,74
==> 177,74 Threat per Second


Thunderfury + SotC

BaseValue: 53,9 DPS
BaseValue+AP: 53,9DPS + (1000/14) = 125,33
BaseValue+AP+SotcAP: 125,33 + (306/14) = 147,19
BaseValue+AP+SotcAP+1HandSpec: 147,19 * 1,1 = 161,91
BaseValue+AP+SotcAP+1HandSpec+SotcHaste = 161,91 * 1,4 = 226,67
After Armor: 226,67 * 0,7 = 158,67 DPS
==> 158,67 Threat per Second

ThreatTFProccDmg: 300
ThreatTFProccDmg+ThreatProccDebuff: 300 + 250 = 550
ThreatTFProccDmg+ThreatProccDebuff+ProccChance: 550 * 0.25 = 137,5
ThreatTFProccDmg+ThreatProccDebuff+ProccChance+SwingTimer: 137,5/1,36 = 101,10
==> 101,10 Threat per Second

Source: ThunderFuryThreatGeneration

Thunderfury + Sotc: 158,67 + 101,10 = 259,77
==> 259,77 Threat per Second

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Okay. So Smilkovpetko stated that it would be possible to use sotc before each consecration to make also the Lok'Amir+SoR-Method benefit from it. This will result in Lok'Amir+SoR giving Consecration additional 84 Spellpower compared to TF+Sotc.

84/24 = 3,5 DmgPerSecond
HolyThreatMultiplier: 3,5 * 1,9 = 6,65
==> 6,65 Threat per Second in favor of Lok'Amir+SoR

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So now we are left with JoR. Since it is possible to switch to sotc every 8 seconds to make consecration benefit from it, it should also be possible to switch to SoR every 8 seconds to use judgement.

So again Lok'Amir+SoR will give an additional 84 Spellpower to JoR compared to TF+Sotc.
Smilkovpetko stated that:

84Spellpower = 44 Additional Holy Dmg
HolyThreatModifier: 44 * 1,9 = 83,6
JudgementCooldowm: 83,6/8 = 10,45
==> 10,45 Threat per Second in favor of Lok'Amir+SoR

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HolyShield will again be in favor of Lok'Amir+SoR.

Holy Shield: 84SP = 4Dmg (provided by smilkovpetko) = 10 Threat per Block = 2,5 Threat/s (Since most bosses have a 2 sec swing timer and block chance is ~50% with holy shield up)
==> 2,5 Threat per Second in favor of Lok'Amir+SoR

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So overall we have

Lok'Amir+SoR: 177,74 + 6,65 + 10,45 + 2,5 = 197,34

Thunderfury+SotC: 259,77 Threat per Second

I still believe that Thunderfury+Sotc outperforms Lok'Amir+SoR as long as SotC and Consecration are bugged on Nostalrius.

@JCarrill0: I dont get what you are trying to say, but results from the PTR with actual testing would be some really helpful intel. So could you rephrase that or explain me the following questions ?

JCarrill0 wrote:this does not count since this was all on the PTR,

What does not count ? And what has the PTR do with it ?

Or are you talking about the assumption that Sotc and Consec are supposed to be fixed on the PTR ?

JCarrill0 wrote:
We used TF during AQ fights and also tested Lok, TF won by a for SOME fight

Won by a ? Small Amout or big amount ? Which fights ? And if only some in which fights was Lok'Amir stronger ?