Addons and automation.

[Stondus]

Not that I'd be a GM or anything, but after reading & re-reading ToS, difference between a "bot addon & a banhammer" and an addon that you can use is pretty obvious.

1. Refresh the auction house window
2. Get the information on auctions such as what the item is and the buyout price
3. Make a bid/buyout on an auction

If you create an addon that makes those 3 things automatically without any user input (yeah, clicking auction NPC isn't input yet) == Banhammer inc.

U make an addon that does all same things so that you have to make each desicion & click a button (refresh, scan for potent moneymakers, buyout them) == legit action.

Yes, the API *might* allow you to make an addon that uses only legit functions, but I believe that the cheating & Botting & 3rd party software mentioned in ToS means "Anything that makes user input & desicion making unnecessary"

[Tinkertown]

Thanks for your input Stondus.

The API in vanilla wow can do a ton of things that later versions cannot. This is undeniable. However I'm far from sure that the Nostalrius team are willing to deem:

Auctioneer
Decursive
Quickheal
CTRA
TradeDispenser
PallyPower
etc, etc

bannable, because they use functions that later became protected/more protected.

It might surprise you that auctioneer (at least some versions, there are too many versions to check them all) contains all you need to make a sniping "bot". All right there in the modules + settings.

Would it suprise you that the version of AUX that I'm currently using could be turned into a 'bot' by changing a == into a <=, changing .signature to .buyout_price_per_unit and removing a -1? (I'm probably exaggerating slightly since I haven't tried this, but I'm willing to bet not by a lot)

That the API can make "bots" shouldn't surprise. After all who hasn't seen trivia bots? Ding/welcome bots. Water trading bots. Auto-repair bots. Etc.

While I do agree that certain things the API can do are probably too strong. (Blizzard certainly thought so) I really think that it is important to have a clear policy that the API is fine to use. It is the backbone that addon and macro development leans upon.

The neutral AH is one of those places where this becomes a problem. This is why I'm in favor of cross faction mailing. Neutral AH sniping is a good way for unethical people to use the powerful API of vanilla wow to their advantage and gain resources on the expense of others. I not only understand that people dislike this, I dislike it myself. I might even dislike it more than many (except those who got screwed big time) because the aftermath makes me defend these players....

My stance is this. If the 1.12.1 API can do it, let it. Otherwise where do you ever draw the line? Should the GM have to aprove every update of every addon? Should there be a convoluted document on the allowed usage of certain API functions?

No.

The only reasonable approach as I see it is to adopt Blizzards policy. And, since we cannot change the API (at least not in the short run, they would have to release their own client) we'd be better of building in workarounds the very few times a real problem occurs. (Like with Neutral AH.)

I really think that rules making the use of auctioneer versions from 2005 a permaban offense (you cheater!) would be horrible policy. I further think that telling you, me or anyone else that we as players have to personally evaluate if the latest version of AUX, Luna Unit Frames, LazyPig or even our own macros break some hard to interprate botting rules is unreasonable.

(And it obviously becomes even more unreasonable if we don't even get to see the rules.)

I both hope and think that the GM team agrees with me, both in the dislike of the Neutral AH snipers and the general policy. But as an avid user of the API, I request confirmation given that an official general policy regarding addons and macros to my knowledge doesn't exist.

[Tinkertown]

Bump for a response. Clarification on if API automation is a) allowed or b) bannable should be fairly straightforward. One would think.

[Stondus]

It might surprise you that auctioneer (at least some versions, there are too many versions to check them all) contains all you need to make a sniping "bot". All right there in the modules + settings.

Would it suprise you that the version of AUX that I'm currently using could be turned into a 'bot' by *snip by Stondus*

That the API can make "bots" shouldn't surprise. After all who hasn't seen trivia bots? Ding/welcome bots. Water trading bots. Auto-repair bots. Etc.

Yes, it isn't a surprise API could make bots. But what I meant is, ToS (or ToU as it seems here..) states:

Code: Select all

A. Cheats; methods to influence and/or facilitate the game-play ...... and thereby granting you and/or any other user an advantage.
B. Bots;  including .... any code..... that allows the automated control of the Game, or any feature or component thereof.

which I believe is translated (by Daemon, Viper & GM's) in the way I described earlier.

If you make an addon that makes things ingame EASIER for you (Like auctioneer, AUX, Enchantrix, Decursive etc on the state the addons are right now), it's OK.
If you modify them to do things ingame FOR you, it's a bot.

For example, Decursive gives a nice view on who & what you can do, but you have to click it yourself to actually do it. Makes things a lot easier.
You modify it to cast whenever possible, making the addon do the job FOR you, is automation, giving you an "A" styled advantage over others.( No, I'm not aware does API even allow that kind of mod, just an example.)

I do agree with you that GM's (Or even Daemon or Viper) response would be needed to clarify this issue, and to draw a line somewhere. The API kinda *has* more potent then most addons use, and getting banned for use of Legit function *does* sound a bit too hard.

[Tinkertown]

You modify it to cast whenever possible, making the addon do the job FOR you, is automation, giving you an "A" styled advantage over others.( No, I'm not aware does API even allow that kind of mod, just an example.).

That's the whole point. Where the API was considered to powerful, Blizzard changed it. All the while keeping the policy that if the API can do it, it is fine to have the API do it.

Also, Decursive certainly makes decisions for the player. It decides who to target and what spell to use. It even decides whether or not to use a spell at all! Sure it requires a click to use in 1.12, but it certainly makes a ton of decisions after that.

Also TriviaAnswers and TradeDispenser is certainly bots then by your definition. As well as Auctioneer, the addon that initially caused me to make this thread. Regardless, I'm looking for the GM teams policy, not the poorly thought out opinions and guesses of other players.

[Stondus]

All the while keeping the policy that if the API can do it, it is fine to have the API do it.

If it *was* fine to have API do it, they wouldn't have changed it. The reason Blizz didn't mass-ban ppl, is they understood it was their f-up, and changed it. That tells me the things they changed were NOT supposed to be used at all.

Also, Decursive certainly makes decisions for the player. It decides who to target and what spell to use. It even decides whether or not to use a spell at all! Sure it requires a click to use in 1.12, but it certainly makes a ton of decisions after that.

Yes, but it STILL needs user desicion weather to click or not. It's the same like DBM telling to "GTFO from fire", or " Deadly ability inc, use a CD". It's making life easier, but it's your call to actually execute it.

Also TriviaAnswers and TradeDispenser is certainly bots then by your definition. As well as Auctioneer, the addon that initially caused me to make this thread.

TriviaAnswer? Yup, it IS a bot. It just doesn't actually give ANY advantage over gameplay. It's annoying like hell, just like TriviaBot itself.
TradeDispenser? If I recall, it still needs you to click ACCEPT.
Auctioneer? How? Scan of AH? You execute it. Search? Same. Buy stuff & post stuff? Same. Where's the bot in it?

... not the poorly thought out opinions and guesses of other players.

Please try NOT to hide your insults if you do it that bad; rather try NOT to insult at all.
If reading ToU in a way that does NOT get you banned in any circumstances is thinking poorly, then yes, I DO have poorly thought out opinions.

[Tinkertown]

TriviaAnswer? Yup, it IS a bot. It just doesn't actually give ANY advantage over gameplay. It's annoying like hell, just like TriviaBot itself.

So should people be banned for that? Or is botting is fine if you don't "get an advantage"? What if there is a price?

TradeDispenser? If I recall, it still needs you to click ACCEPT.

You recall very wrong. Lol. I suppose you think this is a bot too. I better warn our mages.

Auctioneer? How? Scan of AH? You execute it. Search? Same. Buy stuff & post stuff? Same. Where's the bot in it?

You can set it to buy stuff if it sees it. It is the original AH "bot". (If I remember correcty the setting was named "Snatch" or something similar and no in vanilla there was no need for confirmation that is once again a later restriction from Blizz, I don't use it myself on nost, I'm not into spending my time at the AH anyway and prefer AUX) In retail vanilla I used this myself.

[Stondus]

So should people be banned for that? Or is botting is fine if you don't "get an advantage"? What if there is a price?

TBHif it was for me, TriviaBot & answer would have been permabanned in Nost ages ago. With NO possibility of review...

You recall very wrong. Lol.

Well If I was sure of it, would have I mentioned?? (Think I need to install it to see myself)

You can set it to buy stuff if it sees it. It is the original AH "bot".

U just proved my point; by setting it up to have that ability you change a perfectly good addon into an illegal Bot.
***************

We could keep arguing over this for ages, but rather then getting this thread locked by a GM for "flamewars", why don't we do the folowing:

1. I admit that on the bottom line you DO have a point; if it's in API it should be legal, or at least get an official statement from GM's.

2. You admit that I also have valid arguments; ToU does say automation of any kind that makes the player obsolete IS forbidden.

[Tinkertown]

Hey this "snatch" function looks neat, I'll use that, oops permaban. I don't think that is good practice. Even though ppl off course don't have to use it. It's bad if an addon written by one of the most respected vanilla wow addon programmers can land you a permanent ban. Or any addon for that matter.

As for you having a point, I agree that the ToS is written unclear with regards to the API (by not talking about it at all). I and many others have however assumed that just like on retail where Blizzard had similar wording, the API is completely exempt. Only very recently have I even considered that the GM team might not actually follow Blizzards lead on this.

There are a good many posts on the forum from non-GMs saying stuff to the effect of "addons are fine, always" because we all assumed that. The delay in response in this thread doesn't make me less worried.

[Tinkertown]

A response would still be greatly appreciated.