Banned account?

[SanderP]

...

Yeye, keep telling your sad story, I laugh my ass off when you get the final answer "You sold gold" or just a simple thread lock.
And get your hands off my screens.

[Pernille]

I am sorry that you are having a bad day.

[SanderP]

[Mdmadam]

Hey man I hope everything works out for you. Unfortunately once someone gets banned here they usually don't ever see that account again, theres just too much to deal with so most appeals are assumed to be just begging and not legit reasons and they get brushed aside, happens all the time not just here. It's like those cops that just wanna Pew Pew and not sit down at their desk and do the paper work, its a lot easier to just shoot first and ask questions later.

Its scary that there seems to be so many false positives, like I've said before I don't think giving gold to someone, especially a guildie or friend, should be considered "selling" or "buying" that actually called "giving" or "lending" which is free of charge. I think its just weird to just assume things, thats not how a real justice system works. Maybe its a European thing but the accuser should have to prove the defendants guilt first, the defendant should not have to fight to prove their innocence with no hard evidence. This should not be a "my word over yours" business.

[macgarthur]

Hey man I hope everything works out for you. Unfortunately once someone gets banned here they usually don't ever see that account again, theres just too much to deal with so most appeals are assumed to be just begging and not legit reasons and they get brushed aside, happens all the time not just here. It's like those cops that just wanna Pew Pew and not sit down at their desk and do the paper work, its a lot easier to just shoot first and ask questions later.

Its scary that there seems to be so many false positives, like I've said before I don't think giving gold to someone, especially a guildie or friend, should be considered "selling" or "buying" that actually called "giving" or "lending" which is free of charge. I think its just weird to just assume things, thats not how a real justice system works. Maybe its a European thing but the accuser should have to prove the defendants guilt first, the defendant should not have to fight to prove their innocence with no hard evidence. This should not be a "my word over yours" business.

Well said.

[Garfunkel]

What a bunch of winners you guys are. Don't break the rules, you're fine. I borrowed money from a guildmate for my mount and later paid it back - not banned. And come on, equating a private WoW server with a court of law... yeah, that's pretty rich.

You want them to show in detail all evidence how their anti-hack/cheater system works or how they found about gold seller accounts and buyers? So that next time your Chinese goldfarmers wouldn't get caught or you wouldn't have to refund the credit card payments or that macgarthur's speedhack-2 wouldn't be spotted? Because that's what you want - everything else is just bullshit smoke and mirrors.

"Oh my brother fooled around on my account, I wasn't botting"
"I've been super active doing trades, that's why I've got these massive amounts of gold coming in and out all the time"
"oh my account was hacked by some poo-poo head, definitely wasn't sharing it with dozen other people from different countries"
"I was doing this super funny X thing that just LOOKS like I was running/turning/flying fast but honestly I wasn't and you can trust me because I'm a random person on the Internet!!!"

[macgarthur]

When did I ever hack? Kinda sick of hearing people say "don't break the rules and you're fine" when you don't know what happened. So quick to make a judgment of guilty until proven guilty which is why legit appeals can never be heard.

I don't think anyone is asking for a detailed explanation of the inner working of their system, but a little more than "you are banned" would be nice.

[AverageJoe]

I think its just weird to just assume things, thats not how a real justice system works. Maybe its a European thing but the accuser should have to prove the defendants guilt first, the defendant should not have to fight to prove their innocence with no hard evidence. This should not be a "my word over yours" business.

You're confusing the principles shared by public and private entities. Those employed in the public sector, such as elected officials, civil servants, etc. share the presumption of innocence, if not, are legally obligated to uphold it, i.e.: it is the state's responsibility to prove beyond reasonable doubt the defendant is guilty of the crime they are charged with. This isn't necessarily the case with private entities.

Private bodies may not necessarily share the same presumption of innocence and those that do are under no obligation to uphold it in the same manner you would expect from public servants. Sanctions, removals, and outright bannings can take place with or without sufficient warning and with or without proof of the cited offense, sometimes with no recourse. Many entities disclose this upfront in their terms of use/service before you start using their products/services so that, in the event of a violation, you know what to expect.

It's not a "European thing," it's simply how things work. It's a free service that has rules and terms in place that must be followed. Failure to follow said rules and terms can result in removal from said service and those in charge are under no obligation to prove your guilt. Just like you can get banned on other forums, Facebook, Twitter, refused service by a business, and even escorted out of a building and barred future entry, the same concept applies to Nostalrius. It's not a "My word over yours" business, it's a "My service and terms, don't like or can't follow it? Go elsewhere" business.

[Pernille]

What a bunch of winners you guys are. Don't break the rules, you're fine. (...)

Put yourself in my position. You know that you have not broken any rules, yet you have been banned (and yes, false positives can happen in any system). What do you do? I chose to supply as much information as I felt comfortable putting on an open forum, in hopes that this would help towards a swift resolution. You might not have done the exact same, but I doubt you would just have walked away from the game.

(...)
Private bodies may not necessarily share the same presumption of innocence and those that do are under no obligation to uphold it in the same manner you would expect from public servants (...)

Thank you for giving your well thought out input on the principal side of the matter. I fully agree with what you have written: The Nos staff has absolutely no legal obligation to even respond to any posts or appeals.

However, this is not a question of legality, this is a question of how do we want to build a community. I believe that every member of the community should have an interest in fair appeals (as written to Garfunkel above), as your own account might be on the line next time. This is also a reason for wanting a fair civil justice system (in Europe or elsewhere ) as Mdmadam writes. I do understand that the staff has a lot on their plate, I was just impatiently trying to get back in the game as quickly as possible.

What are your thoughts on my "appoint a GM to prepare appeal cases" idea being a regular on the Support forum? Maybe I should put it in a post in the Suggestions forum?

[Mdmadam]

I think its just weird to just assume things, thats not how a real justice system works. Maybe its a European thing but the accuser should have to prove the defendants guilt first, the defendant should not have to fight to prove their innocence with no hard evidence. This should not be a "my word over yours" business.

You're confusing the principles shared by public and private entities. Those employed in the public sector, such as elected officials, civil servants, etc. share the presumption of innocence, if not, are legally obligated to uphold it, i.e.: it is the state's responsibility to prove beyond reasonable doubt the defendant is guilty of the crime they are charged with. This isn't necessarily the case with private entities.

Private bodies may not necessarily share the same presumption of innocence and those that do are under no obligation to uphold it in the same manner you would expect from public servants. Sanctions, removals, and outright bannings can take place with or without sufficient warning and with or without proof of the cited offense, sometimes with no recourse. Many entities disclose this upfront in their terms of use/service before you start using their products/services so that, in the event of a violation, you know what to expect.

It's not a "European thing," it's simply how things work. It's a free service that has rules and terms in place that must be followed. Failure to follow said rules and terms can result in removal from said service and those in charge are under no obligation to prove your guilt. Just like you can get banned on other forums, Facebook, Twitter, refused service by a business, and even escorted out of a building and barred future entry, the same concept applies to Nostalrius. It's not a "My word over yours" business, it's a "My service and terms, don't like or can't follow it? Go elsewhere" business.

I'm actually not one of the people breaking the rules I'm just trying to understand what buying and selling is considered if someone is actually just sending free gold to someone and getting in trouble. Maybe they're actually buying gold, I don't understand why they'd do that you're sucking the fun out of the game for pixels you had to pay real money for, its crazy to think about.

And this entity is a private community not a corporation we all build it up together and if there are rules in place, yes we must all follow them but everyone that breaks them should be punished, I'm not always seeing that. And so you just clarified that because this is private sector this is more like a dictatorship than a democracy.