Vanilla is not the gospel

[pickysticks]

Nostalrius is obviously geared towards those who had played vanilla in the past and want to experience it once more. Its the little things that make vanilla, vanilla. Also why so much people play on Nostalrius.

Any changes would take away the true vanilla experience.

Nostalrius already hosts 4x the amount of players than classic vanilla servers at cap. This is a much more significant deviation from the 'true vanilla experience' than simple QoL implementations such as DTS and EXP block.

[rewind]

Most of the players talking about "blizzlike vanilla" actually know that no such thing exist, they are just asking that in every situation the server should stick to what retail vanilla was if possible.

The idea behind Nostalrius has always been to keep the server the closest to what vanilla was.
This is the server's goal, it was set long ago and the server was advertised on this basis.
Why would the staff take time to answer your suggestion when they are totally inappropriate regarding the objectives they have set for this server ?

There are other servers that allows you to do the kind of things you ask for, why don't you look after them ?

[Throe]

While the "population cap" does not match blizzards standards, it still brings the same vanilla feel of community.

Dual spec and exp block did not exist in Vanilla so therefore, they do not create a vanilla feel or vibe.

Regardless, I'm sure that if I spent a few minutes twisting words that I could justify the inclusion of DTS and EXP block into Nostalrius with regards to the Vanilla flavor, in the same way you have justified the population cap.

I fail to see how that is a contradiction. So they have to hard cap the server population at 2.5k like they did in retail in order for it to be blizzlike?

The things you argued for implementing were NEVER a part of vanilla.
There may be a population cap here but we do not know that yet. And even if it is not the exact same as Blizzards cap, the massive population being a positive was a real vanilla thing. The higher pop servers in vanilla always thrived. This server is no exception. More people means more community, more groups, more world pvp.

Having a high population gives a real sense of the vanilla feeling.
Having Dual Spec or XP Block dont.

Also, this server was marketed as blizzlike and that's one of the things that attracted so many top private server guilds, as well as the enormous 5k+ players on launch day. It appears that only recently (with WoD failing) are we seeing more and more WotLK and onwards features being suggested.

[Bioness]

I'm unfortunately going to have to go with your second listed response. At the end of the day this server is marketed as trying to be as blizz like as possible, that takes both the good and the bad. If you are bothered by the respec costs Kronos (and not being mean here) is pretty similar to this server but has reduced respecialization costs (I think it is maxxed at 10g) and they would likely be more open to ideas that may not be vanilla but will improve the gaming experience for those who aren't so tied down to the blizzlike idea.

Also, this server was marketed as blizzlike and that's one of the things that attracted so many top private server guilds, as well as the enormous 5k+ players on launch day. It appears that only recently (with WoD failing) are we seeing more and more WotLK and onwards features being suggested.

You are correct, Warlords of Draenor is not doing well (I wouldn't call it failing), however a few things.

- These suggestions aren't new
- "WoD failing" isn't increasing these suggestions, that is your confirmation bias making you see it that way
- Nostalrius is the first vanilla private server (far from it)

What does this mean? Simply put visit any other vanilla wow private server forum and you will see the same talk being flung around since BEFORE Burning Crusade was even released, yes you heard right, before. You see players talk about wanting new features all the time, and Blizzard does actually listen and so have gradually added many of these wanted items into World of Warcraft (haircuts, dual spec, faction changes, etc).

The thing is now, because World of Warcraft has added so many new things over the years, when people come into a vanilla private server they realize something...it is pretty barebones. Even I, who have played on several vanilla private servers, just noticed a week ago that nameplates cannot have their distance altered, as this feature was added in Burning Crusade (although it was added in code, thus allowing addons to use it).

tl;dr - people aren't "wrath babies" or "wod dropouts" or anything else, they are people playing on a game that was made 10 years ago, and its age is certainly showing.

[Pottu]

There is a good reason for high respecc cost and that is that it's an intentional gold sink. The economy has an unlimited amount of gold coming in, it needs a method for gold to go out. Otherwise inflation will run rampant and even further disadvantage new players. Repair costs are one method of draining gold away, respecc costs are another. Without them, you would quickly see prices in the AH rise even quicker and higher, because high-end players would have more gold at their disposal. Skills are expensive, mounts are expensive - but these are one time purchases. An active lvl 60 player can haul in hundreds of gold in a week if they know what they are doing and for now, at least some of that income will "vanish" if they need to change their spec.

And a second, almost as important point, is that it creates variety in characters. If respeccing was free or or very cheap, or if it was possible to store 2 specs, most players would just use the most min/maxed PvE build and switch to the most min/maxed PvP build at will. If they, however, cannot afford to pay the respecc cost, they will have to do either PvP or PvE in a sub-optimal build, which means that you'll see holy priests and protection warriors in the Battlegrounds and World PvP, and so on.

[pickysticks]

There is a good reason for high respecc cost and that is that it's an intentional gold sink. The economy has an unlimited amount of gold coming in, it needs a method for gold to go out. Otherwise inflation will run rampant and even further disadvantage new players. Repair costs are one method of draining gold away, respecc costs are another. Without them, you would quickly see prices in the AH rise even quicker and higher, because high-end players would have more gold at their disposal. Skills are expensive, mounts are expensive - but these are one time purchases. An active lvl 60 player can haul in hundreds of gold in a week if they know what they are doing and for now, at least some of that income will "vanish" if they need to change their spec.

This is exactly the type of discussion I'm encouraging. However, I would argue that players arn't simply going out and getting gold for the heck of it. While on the surface I would agree that respecs appears to be a gold sink, I would argue that gold is actually created specifically for respeccing (when the player goes out to grind 50g for their respec). In this way, respeccing does not function as a gold sink.
I'm willing to bet that very few active level 60s are willing to farm more gold than necessary for consumables and enchants- and an even greater percentage of level 60s can't even be bothered to do that. The ones who go above and beyond have sunk gold into epic mounts, and would have brought in more gold than would be sunk into respeccing anyways.

And a second, almost as important point, is that it creates variety in characters. If respeccing was free or or very cheap, or if it was possible to store 2 specs, most players would just use the most min/maxed PvE build and switch to the most min/maxed PvP build at will. If they, however, cannot afford to pay the respecc cost, they will have to do either PvP or PvE in a sub-optimal build, which means that you'll see holy priests and protection warriors in the Battlegrounds and World PvP, and so on.

I would argue that this brand of variety isn't a good thing. A problem with your statement is that players are not allowed the be suboptimal in raids, so this forces them to be suboptimal in PVP- to the detriment of PVPers. Also, in the same way you have an issue with every class being min/maxed in PVP, you'll notice that it already is that way in raids- but this doesn't seem to be an issue with you because I'm guessing you have a raiding-centered perspective.

[Pottu]

Statements like

I'm willing to bet that very few active level 60s are willing to farm more gold than necessary for consumables and enchants- and an even greater percentage of level 60s can't even be bothered to do that.

and

A problem with your statement is that players are not allowed the be suboptimal in raids, so this forces them to be suboptimal in PVP- to the detriment of PVPers.

would require some sort of statistical evidence.

Last I checked, over 30 guilds have cleared Molten Core and killed Onyxia. That number does not include the pugs. Are all of their players identical? I doubt it. Furthermore, Tier 1 and Tier 2 content is not so difficult that it requires min/maxing for efficiency if you can get 40 players to cooperate smartly. Certainly there are guilds and/or raid leaders that demand perfect effectiveness, but all that does is shorten the MC clear time from 3-4 hours to 2-3 hours.

Same in PvP - there's a lot of PvP going on that is not between optimal premades. Significant portion of level 60 battlegrounds happen between PuGs and it is there that you can see most variety.

[riq and snog]

How about we bring the dual spec in. For me the big point is i dont need to go to trainer or adjust my keybinds.
Make a item like the hs with 1 hour cd that changes your speccs and settings.
This item can be purchased at class trainer for 45g and stacks up 20 times:-) or 900g and 20 charges
Gold sink? yes
Trouble respeccing anywhere? no

Xp lock for twinks? well we cant multibox ourselves trough dungeons... so
Make it a gold sink! 10g item xp lock for 10 days!

To encourage pug pvp and discourage griefing give bg comands out so we can que up wherever, whenever we want!
tired of farming in sillithus? want to pvp? but noooo the quebob is so far away.
well i could whisper someone in the city to que me up yes... but comand is more convinient!:-)
With av coming out i can see the worldchat "JOIN AV PLS"
cba to port back or hs on cd? no problem comands have your back!
.bg ws
.bg ab
.bg av
HOORAY

[pickysticks]

Statements like

I'm willing to bet that very few active level 60s are willing to farm more gold than necessary for consumables and enchants- and an even greater percentage of level 60s can't even be bothered to do that.

and

A problem with your statement is that players are not allowed the be suboptimal in raids, so this forces them to be suboptimal in PVP- to the detriment of PVPers.

would require some sort of statistical evidence.

Unfortunately, not many researches feel that collecting and collating information related to players bringing consumables to raids is a very good use of their time. You know as well as I that the quantified research isn't there, so instead, I'll try and make comparisons between player ability in WoW, and a typical ELO curve (I'll use leagues curve):

Challenger: Top 100 players in a region. These are the best of the best, players raiding in guilds like paragon and nihilum.
Diamond: Top .05% to .1%. These players are really good at the game, but they're not quit the best. They're always raid ready, present, pushing good numbers, understand boss mechanics, and rarely stand in the fire.
Platinum: Top .5% to 1%. These players are pretty good at the game. They have probably done some reading on their class and can push good numbers. They're probably raid ready. They may not always be present, but they have a decent understanding of boss mechanics and don't often stand in fire.
Gold: Top 5% to 10%. These players are alright. They probably got a few tips on how to play from their class leader but may not have done more research than that. They pull appreciable numbers, but dont always remember to bring consumables. They know the fights but they mess up fairly often.
Silver: Top 40% to 50%. These players are fairly bad. They don't push good numbers because they've made little effort to understand their class. These players probably dont care enough to bring consumables, and don't know half the encounters in any given raid. They often die to fire.
Bronze: Anyone else who can play ranked (basically the same as level 60). These players are atrocious. They probably stick to 5 mans, but god help you if one of them finds themselves in your raid. There is very little chance they're raid ready (or even know consumables exist and are worth bringing to begin with), and they probably need every fight explained over vent. These players will find a way to die almost every fight.

Whether you think I've made fair comparisons or not, I'd like to point out that a large majority of players are outside of gold league in terms of skill distribution. I think its safe to assume that a similar skill distribution exists in terms of raiders in WoW- which is why I made the comparison in the first place. Players below gold league are outright bad. They probably dont know enough or care enough to get raid ready. If you dont look at WoW and see most of its playerbase as downright retarded (and consequently not readying consumables) its probably because you are also retarded.

As for needing statistics to back up this:

A problem with your statement is that players are not allowed the be suboptimal in raids, so this forces them to be suboptimal in PVP- to the detriment of PVPers.

I'm going to ask you if you actually think its more socially acceptable to PVP with a bad spec than it is to raid with a bad spec. You will probably have a tough time getting into a raid to begin with- but with PVP, just queue up and I doubt anyone will even say anything.

Last I checked, over 30 guilds have cleared Molten Core and killed Onyxia. That number does not include the pugs. Are all of their players identical? I doubt it. Furthermore, Tier 1 and Tier 2 content is not so difficult that it requires min/maxing for efficiency if you can get 40 players to cooperate smartly. Certainly there are guilds and/or raid leaders that demand perfect effectiveness, but all that does is shorten the MC clear time from 3-4 hours to 2-3 hours.

Same in PvP - there's a lot of PvP going on that is not between optimal premades. Significant portion of level 60 battlegrounds happen between PuGs and it is there that you can see most variety.

I'm not sure what you're getting at. The way you trivialize the reduction of time it takes in clearing MC by half leads me to think you arnt worth hearing from regardless. Perfect effectiveness is something far beyond being the right spec, and I do think that having the right spec is something a majority of raid leaders are going to bother you about before you even get into the raid.

I'm not here to defend the implementation of DTS or EXP block- only to suggest that people who browse the suggestions forum keep an open mind, and refrain from statements such as: "Not blizzlike. /end." I'm going to get back to my leveling so I'm probably not going to be popping back to defend any of my statements- I just hope my original post will encourage people to keep a more open mind in the suggestions forum (or encourage the staff to crack down on statements that are not in any way constructive).

[Miv]

Vanilla IS the gospel though.