Current & future raid difficulty discussion

[FatherThrondor]

Actually BWL was clean in one night on retail too except Nefarian who die some weeks later.

Mc last long back in the days only because it was the first raid, so people has to lvl 1-60 => learn making raid => learn cooperation in guild => discover strat => learn wiping etc... That the only reason Mc last some month instead of some days like BWL or ZG. The 2 ( 3 ? ) raids really challenging were AQ 40 - 20 and ofc and much above all Naxxramas..

Wrong. MC took a long time to clear initially because it was tuned to a higher difficulty. It was a common practice at blizzard to re-tune content to be easier as time went on so that guilds which were low-skilled were still able to see content they paid for. Blizzard openly admitted this practice on their forums in response to casual players whining about how content was too hard. It caused quite a shitstorm among the raiding community who mostly came over to WOW from everquest. A lot of us quit in TBC when blizzard definitively told us that this is how they did, and how they will continue to manage WOW game design, because casuals had the right to see content too.

Your assumptions are just flat out wrong, and this leads me to believe that you were not part of the playerbase who beat the pre-nerfed MC alongside real raiding guilds such as Eminence, C'Thun, Overkill et al. MC was originally designed with golem trash capable of critting for 5.5k hp, and crit frequently unless you had 300 +defense.
The lava packs in the back half of MC blasted the raid with aoe fireballs which frequently crit for 5k unless you had moderately strong fire resist (150+) The reason why it took awhile to consistently clear MC on retail is because it was originally harder than the version ur pansy ass guild saw.

[FatherThrondor]

It figures that after a consistent pattern of demanding that the game be dragged down to your level of suck instead of elevating yourself to the level demanded by the game, that history would be forgotten in hindsight, and you would attempt to place your mitigated accomplishment on even footing with real gamers. This is precisely why we opposed dumbing down of content in the first place.

[Misa]

It's 10 year old content. Of course we are going to kill and clear things easy. People actually know how to gear now, so damage is higher than it was on retail, people know how to use their mana efficiently, we have better addons now, etc. Blizzlike server = blizzlike server. No need to touch values.

When is the line drawn anyway? When is a boss hard but not hard enough to kill? When half the raid dies every fight? This was not the case on retail, at least.

Vanilla content is easy, and it will always be. If you don't like it, then just move on. Adjusting values just because a few people on this forum think it's too easy is bad overall. Again, blizzlike = blizzlike. Content is easy. It will always be.

[konked]

I don't think anyone is against harder progression, I'd like to see increased difficulty on progression for sure.

[Strife]

There is really no progression right now, at least not long term. Good guilds enter MC/ONY and kill every boss in 1 to 5 tries until they have cleared the whole instance. Now for those guilds, there is nothing to do but farm this content once per week for the next 3 months while we wait for the next raid. I already know that with stock values BWL is going down in 1 day and that we will be in no better position, then what? Wait for AQ, so we've got to wait 6 months before the raids aren't a complete walkover?

Why not tune them properly NOW, so that the bosses are actually difficult like people found them back in 2005. There might even be some sense of accomplishment for being part of a guild that can clear all of the content, a final goal to strive towards for every player. The game at this point was designed for only the best to finish the last boss of the current tier. This doesn't happen on private servers and every random guild with enough players has their warriors running around with ashkandi's, because it is tuned wrong.

How is it fun if it's so easy that you don't even need to bring consumables or play your class remotely well, or have it geared properly and still faceroll every boss in the game? There is no end-game raiding progression here for players that are not terrible at the game.

I'm frustrated because my end-game right now consists of LFR tuned end-game raid bosses once a week and 10v0 / 15v0 WSG/AB premades for free points. It feels like all my epics and honor is being handed to me on a plate, I have not worked for any of these things. WTB fun.

[Lerix]

There is really no progression right now, at least not long term. Good guilds enter MC/ONY and kill every boss in 1 to 5 tries until they have cleared the whole instance. Now for those guilds, there is nothing to do but farm this content once per week for the next 3 months while we wait for the next raid. I already know that with stock values BWL is going down in 1 day and that we will be in no better position, then what? Wait for AQ, so we've got to wait 6 months before the raids aren't a complete walkover?

Why not tune them properly NOW, so that the bosses are actually difficult like people found them back in 2005. There might even be some sense of accomplishment for being part of a guild that can clear all of the content, a final goal to strive towards for every player. The game at this point was designed for only the best to finish the last boss of the current tier. This doesn't happen on private servers and every random guild with enough players has their warriors running around with ashkandi's, because it is tuned wrong.

How is it fun if it's so easy that you don't even need to bring consumables or play your class remotely well, or have it geared properly and still faceroll every boss in the game? There is no end-game raiding progression here for players that are not below average.

I'm frustrated because my game right now consist of LFR tuned end-game raid bosses once a week and 10v0 / 15v0 WSG/AB premades for free points. It feels like all my epics and honor is being handed to me on a plate, I have not worked for any of these things. WTB fun.

Doesn't matter. With two months+ until new content every raid (sans Naxx) is going to get one nighted.

[Strife]

Doesn't matter. With two months+ until new content every raid (sans Naxx) is going to get one nighted.

Ya. Though I wish they would adjust it instead of letting that happen and just scale up the bosses significantly so we have something to grind out and actually do at level 60.

I'm just jumping on the floor tiles in ironforge instead atm, if I were horde I'd totally be running laps around the bank roof instead of being productive farming something, looking forward to the next raid night.

It's a good thing for casual guilds too. With proper tuning they may never beat all of the current content, which means they'll never reach the end, always have progress raids to look forward to. Watching themselves improve over time until they finally kill that boss that they were stuck on for weeks. This is exactly how vanilla on retail was, though mostly because people were nowhere near as good or knowledgeable about the game. To get as close as possible to that experience as back then, we need to buff the bosses to compensate for our vastly better knowledge of the whole game.

[Misa]

Your problem is that you are not facing reality of Vanilla servers in 2015 and have some terrible expectations of how they should be. Your rose-tinted goggles are hampering your view right now.

If you really want the true vanilla experience, I'd suggest starting a guild and only recruit people that have never done Vanilla raid content before. You'll see that only then you might get to experience some trouble in killing the bosses. But really only then.

This stuff happens on every single vanilla server. If it's not your thing, then I'd suggest you quit now, because everything will be cleared in the first week if not first two weeks after release up till Naxxramas. I can guarantee you that.

Artificially increasing difficulty by adjusting values is boring, lame and flatout bad for this server's reputation of wanting to be blizzlike.

[Strife]

Yep, I guess my problem is with mangos vanilla private servers in 2015 then, I want what the real game was back in 2005. That's why we're all here right?

It is ludicrous to believe that difficulty can't be achieved in the current raid content, so many values could be adjusted to make things much more challenging. I guarantee you could make any guild on this server wipe all night on a single boss, but still be beatable after enough tries, through numerical changes in either health, damage, ability timers or a combination. Would that REALLY break the authenticity of the server's goal? In my mind it would only bring it closer to it.

[Misa]

Again, you're trying to artificially increase bosses by adjusting values. It adds no difficulty other than the bosses take longer to kill. That's boring and unneccessary.

And no, I don't think that's why everyone is here. I, for one, just enjoy the content as it is. Difficult or not. You're here for that, yes, but it's unrealistic to think that 10-year old blizzlike content is as hard now as it was then. It's just not. And increasing values does not change anything other than lengthen things up a bit.

There are still guilds not clearing MC and Onyxia in a single sweep. I think you should focus more on them instead of the 2 maybe 3 guilds that are killing Rag pre-sons. The guilds currently doing that are still very tryhard. And not lazy idiots picking their nose all day in IF. We work for it, and it paid off.

The problem you are facing is the players and their experience, not the content.

We're just going to repeat what we think from now so I'll leave it at that.