Balancing the classes a bit?

[smilkovpetko]

@Theloras you quoted me so I'm assuming that wall of text was meant for me? I just thought it was funny how smilkovpetko called that other dude uninformed and then goes on to mention a consumable which isn't ingame yet and a weapon which paladins never will get their hands on. I'm not here to argue

Just out of curiosity, paladins AoE prowess seems like a topic you're very keen to prove (if I understood this thread correctly, I didn't bother reading it all) so why don't you show videos of you outdamaging a competent mage on the AoE packs in Stratholme or better yet, the dog packs in MC? Or Sulfuron if your guild stacks the adds on that fight of course. I don't think easily cheeseable pictures from another server and a video of a low lvl dungeon will convince anyone.
Also please correct me if I'm wrong, I play horde and have very limited knowledge about palas. But doesn't your AoE damage depend on you having aggro? Which I could imagine would be a problem for you to hold on an aoe pack with no aoe taunt or regular taunt for that matter. I could also imagine the lack of defensive cooldowns being a problem on hard hitting packs (Yes I know you got bubble, but since it kills aggro it kinda defeats the purpose)

@smilkovpetko What makes you think I'm trolling? Mages and warlocks benefits way more from Azuresong, so doing that would be kind of a dick move and I doubt any decent players would play in a guild with such policies. Anyways I wish you luck if you decide to run a guild like that, I would personally love to see it

@smilkovpetko What makes you think I'm trolling? Mages and warlocks benefits way more from Azuresong,

How can they benefit more than Paladin Tank if this weapon means "heavy Aggro" for this Tank?..

This is how your argument sound :

You want to say that it is better to give Thunderfury to Rogues instead Warrior Tanks because they benefit more than warrior tanks?.....

the dog packs in MC?

as retribution pve (without return damage)

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/Fight ... 80&Trash=1

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/Fight ... 55&Trash=1

As Protection PVE (with return damage)

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/Fight ... 18&Trash=1

Or Sulfuron if your guild stacks the adds on that fight of course.

descent geared Retri Pve without return damage against very bis t3 geared

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/Fight ... 16&Fight=6


But doesn't your AoE damage depend on you having aggro? Which I could imagine would be a problem for you to hold on an aoe pack with no aoe taunt or regular taunt for that matter.

Our AoE Threats are far stronger for anyone to get even halfway near our Aggro if we use "Righteous Fury" .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXV1lqIJr9w - enjoy in this video and see more about it.

I could also imagine the lack of defensive cooldowns being a problem on hard hitting packs (Yes I know you got bubble, but since it kills aggro it kinda defeats the purpose)

In other hand Removing Bubble or when Bubble gone you will notice that Aggro is not killed and all npc's or boss will return back to you asap.

That's why we have way much more Block Value and Higher Avoidance from Talent Tree compare to warriors. We have Lay of Hand , We have Macro to "bubble and remove instantly" in order to remove sensitive Debuffs that hit us strong , We have Greater Stoneshield Potion to reduce that "Hard Hits" by having "Armor Cap" .

Maexxna

https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xta1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/10423937_10152396585210418_3243957038861438017_n.jpg?oh=218d229682cc5fa163789a7ca34e4fdd&oe=5672CFEF

Twins

https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/10641098_10152399822770418_1310966322561800711_n.jpg?oh=4d926eb37bf8c4ea96be220e4b55bdbd&oe=5668F94D

Soaking Patchwerk Hateful Strike

https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xat1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/1460107_10152378146495418_601091396557918473_n.jpg?oh=cbc85702f5562c7e3c62229e9600fb23&oe=5675962A

Tell me any boss that hit harder than this?.

[Theloras]

Credit to Cysthen for this gem of a macro:

Divine Protection Rank 1:
For 15 mana this is a bubble that last 6 seconds. Now I have an add on that debuffs it as soon as I use it. What this does is gets rid of ALL debuffs, including some of those special boss debuffs. Now you might think.

OMG THAT DROPS AGGRO WTF!!

No it doesn't. In fact you keep all the aggro you previously had. With the add on when you use it the boss drops you for half a second, which isn't enough time for it to hit anyone. This is one of our greatest utilities in the game and because I recently found this it gives another thing Protection Paladins have over other tanks. Experiment some with it.

Link to add on that debuffs Divine Protection: http://www.mediafire.../?3zvwelbics79m
(Just download those 3 files, put them into a folder and name it Block Protection. Then put that folder into your Addon folder).

(This add on does not affect your other bubble abilities, Type “/bp on” to activate it in the game)

[Theloras]

Additional screenshots of both AoE and single target boss fights/gauntlets showing what 1337 Paladins can do:

http://imageshack.com/a/img905/146/E8S4QX.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img540/4194/xVEnV8.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img537/6334/S8R8oc.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img537/9126/qwiN0r.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img538/1449/zJEIem.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img538/5418/lpTxec.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img661/5240/Uxv2K1.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img540/757/2N41Gg.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img538/9189/E3ZQdR.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img673/7889/PUbSl5.jpg

[Snautz]

@Theloras I'm sure you can understand why i remain skeptic (not denying the possibility) since I know nothing about the server mechanics on that particular server(s) and since those pictures really doesn't give a proper insight into the process of the fights. I must say the itemization looks extremely impractical and gimmicky though

@smilkovpetko What makes you think I'm trolling? Mages and warlocks benefits way more from Azuresong,

How can they benefit more than Paladin Tank if this weapon means "heavy Aggro" for this Tank?..

This is how your argument sound :

You want to say that it is better to give Thunderfury to Rogues instead Warrior Tanks because they benefit more than warrior tanks?.....

All mages and warlocks abilities are magic based, both aoe and single target, I'm sure you can understand the logic behind boosting a player from your raid on every encounters is better than boosting one player for aoe packs only.

I can't see the similarity, you always want the overall best weapon on your tank so he can keep aggro. Putting Azuresong on a tank for single targets is beyond ridiculous

I don't know what you are trying to prove with that sulfuron link, Because even me (a mage with MC gear without flask) consistently do more dps on sulfuron than all of the people in that link except for that warrior called "Rileysteele". Not convincing to be honest, and the "AoE threat" video is just a video of you kiting the mobs untill they run away in last phase of the razorgore fight? no one is actually trying to burn those mobs down.
The video however clearly shows how much the warriors beat you on single target threat and survivability, you even almost died to conflag in the end.

In other hand Removing Bubble or when Bubble gone you will notice that Aggro is not killed and all npc's or boss will return back to you asap.

You're mistaking aggro and threat, I know you don't loose threat, but on an aoe pack when you drop low popping bubble simply isn't an option since you won't be able to get enough heals in that milisec if you remove it instantly again, and if you keep it up for more than that milisec then some mage are gonna be dead.

Anyways TL;DR I'm not convinced of paladins aoe dmg powers just yet, but you guys sure seem certain in your case so I'll be looking forward to be proven wrong on this server at some point

[Theloras]

"@Theloras I'm sure you can understand why i remain skeptic (not denying the possibility) since I know nothing about the server mechanics on that particular server(s) and since those pictures really doesn't give a proper insight into the process of the fights. I must say the itemization looks extremely impractical and gimmicky though "

That's fine Snautz - we can agree to disagree given that you play on Horde and have little experience with Paladins - so consider this part two of Theloras' Paladin 101 course

Let's get started, shall we!

Mechanics are different from that server to this server in the fact that on Peenix, Consecration scales with spell dmg and here on Nostalrius it scales with attack power.

In the end though, this is a moot point given the fact that on Peenix, Paladin tier gear (which is what I was using - Tier 2 Judgement or Tier 2.5 Avenger) both have oodles and oodles of spell dmg making AoE dmg work quite well:

http://imageshack.com/a/img823/158/jzlec.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img850/5752/k40h.jpg

Currently here on Nostalrius, Paladin Tier 2 Judgement has $hitloads of STR and since 1 STR = 2 AP, Consecration is scaling quite well here as well.

Therefore, your "itemization looks extremely impractical" doesn't apply either on Peenix or here on Nostalrius as I am using actual Paladin Tier gear and not taking away items from anyone else.

The spell damage weapons (Lok'Amir and The End of Dreams) I had during my time on Peenix were obtained through GDKPs so no guild mate casters "lost out on loot" seeing as I had the highest gold to offer the raid leader and therefore got both items - plus they are both 1Hand Maces so to Mages and Warlocks who can't use em!

Everything else was either obtained from guild runs or by farming Naxx trash (Grand Crusader Shoulders, Belt, Legs, Misplaced Servo Arm):

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img538/5541/qIZkrs.jpg
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img673/672/wnpx1n.jpg
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img538/5541/qIZkrs.jpg

As far as "insight" into the fights, I don't know what else to tell you other than the fact that if multiple mobs are involved in a boss fight fight or a gauntlet, then Paladin DPS skyrocket through the roof. It's as simple as that.

Likewise, none of the screenshots or SWS stats records were doctored in any way - they were all reset at the beginning of every boss fight/encounter so they can stand up to anyone scrutinizing them.

"In other hand Removing Bubble or when Bubble gone you will notice that Aggro is not killed and all npc's or boss will return back to you asap."

The macro that Cysthen came up with and which I posted above, is not meant as a Defensive cooldown in the same way that Shield Wall or Last Stand work - it is used in the event that major wipe producing and tank dying boss debuffs work.

Think of the first boss in AQ20 - Kurinnaxx - who applies Mortal Wound - Nondispellable stackable debuff on the MT that reduces healing by 10%.

Rather than require a tank swap, Cysthen's Divine Protection addon/macro activates Divine Protection which clears all undispellable debuffs like Mortal Wound and then instantly removes Divine Protection. This allows him to remain main tanking the boss even though he gains complete immunity for a micro second:

Divine Protection
Rank 1
15 mana
Instant
You are protected from all physical attacks and spells for 6 sec, but during that time you cannot attack or use physical abilities yourself. Once protected, the target cannot be made invulnerable by Divine Shield, Divine Protection or Blessing of Protection again for 1 min.
http://db.vanillagaming.org/?spell=498

Lay on Hands functions in a similar fashion to Shield Wall or Last Stand.

"You're mistaking aggro and threat, I know you don't loose threat, but on an aoe pack when you drop low popping bubble simply isn't an option since you won't be able to get enough heals in that milisec if you remove it instantly again, and if you keep it up for more than that milisec then some mage are gonna be dead."

As far as AoE tanking, if I drop too low while AoEing multiple mob packs, then that is the fault of the healers not mine. Imagine what would happen if a Mage or Warlock were AoE tanking those mobs in nothing but cloth armour compared to my Plate armour + Shield and this is also a moot point.

Mages don't have the HP to survive more than 1-2 hits while doing Arcane Explosion and while Warlocks do have the HP, they have to do dmg to themselves with Hellfire in order to do AoE dmg. It's just easier for both of them to stand at range and use their channeled AoE spells instead while I drop Consecration with Righteous Fury up and hold agro on everything.

[smilkovpetko]

@Theloras I'm sure you can understand why i remain skeptic (not denying the possibility) since I know nothing about the server mechanics on that particular server(s) and since those pictures really doesn't give a proper insight into the process of the fights. I must say the itemization looks extremely impractical and gimmicky though

@smilkovpetko What makes you think I'm trolling? Mages and warlocks benefits way more from Azuresong,

How can they benefit more than Paladin Tank if this weapon means "heavy Aggro" for this Tank?..

This is how your argument sound :

You want to say that it is better to give Thunderfury to Rogues instead Warrior Tanks because they benefit more than warrior tanks?.....

All mages and warlocks abilities are magic based, both aoe and single target, I'm sure you can understand the logic behind boosting a player from your raid on every encounters is better than boosting one player for aoe packs only.

I can't see the similarity, you always want the overall best weapon on your tank so he can keep aggro. Putting Azuresong on a tank for single targets is beyond ridiculous

I don't know what you are trying to prove with that sulfuron link, Because even me (a mage with MC gear without flask) consistently do more dps on sulfuron than all of the people in that link except for that warrior called "Rileysteele". Not convincing to be honest, and the "AoE threat" video is just a video of you kiting the mobs untill they run away in last phase of the razorgore fight? no one is actually trying to burn those mobs down.
The video however clearly shows how much the warriors beat you on single target threat and survivability, you even almost died to conflag in the end.

In other hand Removing Bubble or when Bubble gone you will notice that Aggro is not killed and all npc's or boss will return back to you asap.

You're mistaking aggro and threat, I know you don't loose threat, but on an aoe pack when you drop low popping bubble simply isn't an option since you won't be able to get enough heals in that milisec if you remove it instantly again, and if you keep it up for more than that milisec then some mage are gonna be dead.

Anyways TL;DR I'm not convinced of paladins aoe dmg powers just yet, but you guys sure seem certain in your case so I'll be looking forward to be proven wrong on this server at some point

All mages and warlocks abilities are magic based, both aoe and single target,

The same rule apply for paladin , his abilities are all based As Magic (Holy).

I'm sure you can understand the logic behind boosting a player from your raid on every encounters is better than boosting one player for aoe packs only.

Your Argument does not make any sense at all.

First of all if you have seen the Screenshots i posted , you will notice that i am Maintanking Bosses and i don't get any boost at all. (Maintanking Naxx Bosses that hit extremely hard is impossible to get boosted).

Putting Azuresong on a tank for single targets is beyond ridiculous

It is funny that you answered this by yourself before you make this statement just to copy you :

you always want the overall best weapon on your tank so he can keep aggro.

The video however clearly shows how much the warriors beat you on single target threat and survivability, you even almost died to conflag in the end.

In the video there i was not Meant to Tank it even so you can notice that there is no "judgement of crusade on boss" to increase my Threats.

In the video in fact the Warrior Tanks lost their aggro from my "AOE" .

You say that i almost died to Conflag , this was because i receive no heals before that and used 0 fire resistance on me. My own Lay of Hand Saved me there.

Conflag was hitting for barely 300 damage, meanwhile the aoe "stun" and aoe "fireballs" was the main cause of the high damage which is equal damage done toward Paladins and Warriors Tanks.

Also if you seen the warrior Tank was about to die there before you point a finger toward me.
Next is that the healers was not situational aware toward "Tank Healing" so they let many people die from not doing their best job.

I don't know what you are trying to prove with that sulfuron link, Because even me (a mage with MC gear without flask) consistently do more dps on sulfuron than all of the people in that link except for that warrior called "Rileysteele".

You see how much "stubborn" people can be?.

1.I have done there 515 DPS as Retribution Paladin in server where 70% of my Abilities was "Nerf" to the Ground by not working at all or not increasing even half of the damage that they have to.
2.I was apparently with "Tier 2" Gear.
3.Nostalrius Maximum Dps Mages that have done there is this : http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/Fight ... imit=MaIPa
(This is not far greater than my DPS on the link as you trying to say).

I am not here to "convict you" how great we are , but apparently in this server we can achieve even far greater DPS than we could in the project where i was. Abilities here work much better and with much more proper scaling.

Even thou if i start to push my Maximum DPS on this boss using my "AOE" there is no Warrior Tank that could handle this threats.

I know you don't loose threat, but on an aoe pack when you drop low popping bubble simply isn't an option since you won't be able to get enough heals in that milisec if you remove it instantly again, and if you keep it up for more than that milisec then some mage are gonna be dead.

First of all , why would i use Bubble on "AOE" ? there is no "AOE" that hit for such high amount of damage + our Block Value make us far greater surviving "AOE" than Warrior Tanks.
Unlike us i admit they are better on 1 Target. (their 10% dmg reduce make this)
Block Value is straight Damage amount Blocking. Which in "aoe" fights you can even Block the full amount of Damage that you receive because every "AOE" does usual so low dps compare to "Single".

Anyways TL;DR I'm not convinced of paladins aoe dmg powers just yet, but you guys sure seem certain in your case so I'll be looking forward to be proven wrong on this server at some point

It will take long time until i hit level 60 due to my Adventure Journey , I know that situations about "people not accepting hybrids" will make this much more difficult to start and show how it work.

But one thing remember is that when i hit level 60 , when i get my best preraid gear i will start streaming "Nostalrius" Protection Paladin Tanking same as i did on the other project that you deny but is not so different than this.

[Snautz]

@Theloras Your point about this servers mechanics vs another servers mechanics is exactly why I remain skeptic to the idea in a lot of ways, I wanna see it done on this server and after that whole lecture I expect you to follow through .

That being said I'm in no way opposed to untradional approaches to the game, I'm all for it actually, as long as it proves to be more efficient without having any overall drawback on the raid. What I mean by drawback is you may be pulling some insane numbers, but if you require more time to be able to hold threat than a warrior using challenging shout and if you require more healing than a warrior it's obviously not efficient, just an example.
I'm sure you will find 10 arguments from another server to disprove it and I will not be in a position to agree or disagree for multiple reasons and I will end up referring to the first few sentences of this post again.

With regards to AQ boss tanking tactics I'm not in a position to discuss anything past BWL since I haven't done any of that in 10 years and back then I was dps. But I wouldn't be surprised if paladins have some niches, I would still put my money on a warrior on the majority of fights though.

"As far as AoE tanking, if I drop too low while AoEing multiple mob packs, then that is the fault of the healers not mine. Imagine what would happen if a Mage or Warlock were AoE tanking those mobs in nothing but cloth armour compared to my Plate armour + Shield and this is also a moot point."
You ALWAYS have multiple warriors with challenging shout though, so using a shout rotation and letting mages + warlocks go bonkers on aoe might overall be a more efficient solution.

@smilkovpetko
I feel like you're just arguing for the sake of arguing and you're having a hard time grasping simple points so I'm gonna keep it short and unrefined with you.
A paladin also uses their melee weapon to singletarget tank. Azuresong simply doesn't make the cut for that since it is slow as fuck and have low damage compared to the alternatives, so what I'm saying is you gotta pick between giving that pala better aoe tanking damage vs giving a mage/warlock better damage overall. Easy choice

Just look at your tier gears itemization and set bonuses compared to a warriors dude. Even if you didn't use judgement of crusade he was still at double your threat even though he got conflagged way more than you.

Seriously? There are almost 200 dps difference which is a lot. Also you are in tier 2 + 2,5 gear while I (number 2 on the list) is in mostly dungeon greens and blues plus without flasks. No comparison.

Anyways feel free to prove your point when you reach level60 on this server.

[Theloras]

Think of it this way...

Warriors have great single target mitigation and single target DPS but low AoE mitigation and low AoE DPS compared to a Paladin who has lower single target mitigation and single target DPS but absolutely stupid amounts of AoE mitigation and insane amounts of AoE DPS.

In any AoE situation, I'm never at risk of dying as the incoming damage isn't enough to kill me with healers focused on me whereas my outgoing and reflective damage cannot be topped even with the Mages/Warlocks also put out their respective AoE dmg.

"What I mean by drawback is you may be pulling some insane numbers, but if you require more time to be able to hold threat than a warrior using challenging shout and if you require more healing than a warrior it's obviously not efficient, just an example."

Pulling 4K DPS = never losing agro on anything

"You ALWAYS have multiple warriors with challenging shout though, so using a shout rotation and letting mages + warlocks go bonkers on aoe might overall be a more efficient solution."

What's the point if even the casters can't match my DPS? Is it not more efficient to have me not only tanking but also DPSing as well?

[Snautz]

I hiiiighly doubt 4k is possible at this stage of the game

Having a couple of fury wars switch to a shield and chain aoe taunt along with the regular warrior tanks sounds like a better solution than taking a paladin along solely for aoe packs imo, taunt is fail-proof a paladin can (and probably will) lose aggro if he isn't given 'x' amount of time to build threat. Another perk of bringing an extra fury warriors instead of a pala is their insane single target dps, their cleave is by no means bad at all either. So looking at the whole duration of a raid I would probably prefer an extra fury war as opposed to bringing a pala solely for the aoe packs.

[Theloras]

I hiiiighly doubt 4k is possible at this stage of the game

Having a couple of fury wars switch to a shield and chain aoe taunt along with the regular warrior tanks sounds like a better solution than taking a paladin along solely for aoe packs imo, taunt is fail-proof a paladin can (and probably will) lose aggro if he isn't given 'x' amount of time to build threat. Another perk of bringing an extra fury warriors instead of a pala is their insane single target dps, their cleave is by no means bad at all either. So looking at the whole duration of a raid I would probably prefer an extra fury war as opposed to bringing a pala solely for the aoe packs.

"taunt is fail-proof"

First off, both Challenging Shout and Taunt can and do miss since they are actually considered spells and thus require +Spell Hit to work properly - hence why Warrior Tier 3 Dreadnaught armour has the following set bonus:

4 pieces: Improves your chance to hit with Taunt and Challenging Shout by 5%.
http://db.vanillagaming.org/?itemset=523

And warriors would use this trinket in combination with the T3 Dreadnaught set bonus in order to 100% make sure that taunt would work in the Four Horsemen fight:

Nat Pagle's Broken Reel
Binds when picked up
Unique
Trinket
Requires Level 60
Use: Increases the chance to hit with spells by 10% for 15 sec. (cooldown 1.25 min)

By valkyr on 11/25/2006 (Patch 1.12.2)
Makes Four Horsemen a joke. 4 piece Dreadnaught takes spell resist chance down to 11%, so with this you have a 1% chance to resist taunt.

The cooldown is only 1.25 minutes, so by the time the tank has to get to the next station, its cooldown is up. The fight is certainly possible to do without it, just makes learning/executing the transitions a whole hell of a lot easier.
http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=19947

Second of all, I don't have to rely on multiple warriors having to go through a rotation of their 3 minute cd to AoE tank.

"a paladin can (and probably will) lose aggro if he isn't given 'x' amount of time to build threat"

Thirdly, I don't require any time to pickup or hold agro - nor will I ever "lose" agro lol to anyone with Consecration, Retribution Aura and Righteous Fury up - not to mention every other piece of AoE dmg that I put out.

Righteous Fury
30% of base mana
Instant
Increases the threat generated by your Holy attacks by 60%. Lasts 30 min.
http://db.vanillagaming.org/?spell=25780

There's a reason why Paladins are MUCH better tanks for 5/10 man speed runs in Vanilla WoW - our AoE dmg and threat can't be matched by any other class.