Third week of raiding: Eye of Sulfuras

[DrearyYew]

The Force Reactive Disk also scales with SP iirc

[Arael]

A Paladin with FORCE REACTIVE DISC >>>>>>>> any mage or warlock in any AoE situation

(2) School Damage (Nature)
Value: 25
Radius: 5 yards

k

it chains to ALL targets on EVERY block bro...look at my damage compared to a Tier 2/2.5 warlock at number 2 on SWS for the BWL gauntlet and Broodlord fight:

http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/222/zkw7.jpg

#ScreenGoesCompletelyYellowFromAllTheShieldProcs

And this isn't even considering the following:
- Consecration
- Retribution Aura
- Thorns
- Naglering
- Razor Gauntlets
- Bonespike Shoulders
- Cloak of Flames
- Essence of the Pure Flame
- Crystal Spire
- Fire Shield

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STIixkkOmms

#TryAgainAtTrollingMe

#k

[Grave]

On-topic: I don't think this is the first Eye drop. Didn't Grizzly get one like a few months ago? Gz nonetheless. Any warrior wanting to enjoy their PvP experience should go swords for sword spec. And if you can get the BRE, it's raining dead cows.

For Sulfuras to be useful in PvP, both warrior/paladin would have to respec out of their PvE spec (ideal) to make use of it, so imo, whoever bothers to respec most regularly/most committed should get it. Eventually either party will get tired of the respec costs and will use it for Ironforge AFK.

[Theloras]

methinks that Arael is jelly of my mad skillzzz

what say you all?

[Aslan]

So on one side we have people claiming that you can clear content even with hybrids like ret pallies if for casual and fun playing since the content is easy and goes down anyway (assuming you dont use all dps as hybrid such as feral, enha, ele, firemage, hemo rogue and various other pvp specs). Thats obviously true.

On the other hand there are words on claiming that the utily of a hybrid class such as ret pally doesnt benefit the full efficiency of a raid in a way that makes it superior to another class/spec (e.g. Only useful for 1 or 2 parts of bwl if you dont require your guild to have oil of immolation and stratholme water). Thats obviously true aswell.

And why again are there argumentations?

[Gazpy]

theloras, that shield should get damaged pretty often by it's proc and should break by itself very easily if you tank a lot of trash with it, it was normal to have 2 with you when you went to farm because the proc eats 1 durability quite often, if it didn't it would be not balanced.
And your screenshot shows that you TANKED a lashlayer, thus other ppl had to stop their dps because threat problems?? post something else. Lashlayer is dps fight not in sense of making high dmg, but everyone should be split all around, a perfect hunter battle is it!
I respect prot paladins as they are nice to have on some fights like Fankriss or Neff, just anything that spawns some little trash that is annoying, and I'll gladly take them to Scholo/Strat, but lacking the taunt is the problem, that's why ppl see them as inferior to other tankable classes, the lack of taunt, and high dependancy on mana that can't regen like it did in BC.

[Tyraeus]

So on one side we have people claiming that you can clear content even with hybrids like ret pallies if for casual and fun playing since the content is easy and goes down anyway (assuming you dont use all dps as hybrid such as feral, enha, ele, firemage, hemo rogue and various other pvp specs). Thats obviously true.

On the other hand there are words on claiming that the utily of a hybrid class such as ret pally doesnt benefit the full efficiency of a raid in a way that makes it superior to another class/spec (e.g. Only useful for 1 or 2 parts of bwl if you dont require your guild to have oil of immolation and stratholme water). Thats obviously true aswell.

And why again are there argumentations?

You know, I've always wondered just how far a "misfit" raid composed majority of offspecs and hybrids could get in Vanilla. You'd still need a few regular healers, but I'd be willing to bet that a raid with no "traditional" DPS specs would still clear content. It'd just be a matter of working out new/different setups and synergies. I've always thought it'd be a more interesting way to approach the content, like figuring it all out brand-new instead of just doing the same thing everyone else has always done. My opinion is in the minority though.

WRT to Ret paladin's utility, the problem there is that 1) you need a good player with decent situational awareness to maximise it, and 2) it's very hard to notice the impact of this with the traditional tools we use to analyse raid performance (eg. DPS meters). You have to really be watching, and most people don't. For example, as Ret I can (and have) cleansed poison or other debuffs off myself and others to give the healers one less thing to worry about, BoF or cleanse trapped melee, BoP healers or casters who've attracted loose adds (or stun the add, smack it and pull it back to the tanks, or switch to 1h and shield and tank it myself), offheal players who're about to die, prevent a raid wipe with Lay on Hands, additional DI, additional blessing, mitigate incoming tank damage on big pulls by stunning a mob, fear UD mobs (very situational), interrupt caster mobs with Repentance, switched to AoE tanking mode where necessary, and used Bubble to ignore boss mechanics others have to run from, or reset stacking debuffs others die from. That last one has even resulted in kills which would have otherwise been wipes, because everyone else was dead and the Ret finished the boss on his own (I've only done that a couple of times, though, I won't argue that it happens often ).

Unfortunately all of that is much harder to notice than a nice, simple number on a DPS meter, and it's doubly rare to find a Ret pally who really takes advantage of that versatility to help the raid and doesn't just stand in the fire and autoswing. Hence Ret is undervalued, except by a very small number of observant people.

We're like an insurance policy. If played well, we can make a big difference when things go bad, so a lot of the time, people don't see the value because things aren't going bad.

[Kaleidoscope]

People dont bring LOLRet or LOLPROT paladins and feral druids is cuz of they arent fit for raiding no matter u say tbvh.

Also people want smooth runs and tbh a tank with no taunt will never work either sure u can hold aggro but its fucked when u have to taunt

[Aslan]

You have some valid points Tyraeus, though a lot of the things you listed can aswell be done by a full holy paladin right? What you would need, is some sort of a hybrid spec, Im not really familiar with paladin healing as a horde player though but as an exemple, you can spec a shaman to improved totems, providing a boost for 3 mdps in your group, the shaman will still be a main spec healer, he is equally strong at raid healing but completely useless as tank healing. In addition he can do dps on trash and bosses where no heals are needed. No matter how mich dps it is, its some and he doesnt need mana so he can heal between fights so downtime doesnt increase. And for hard bosses where you need all healers you have them all.

So in the end its the same as a resto shaman (keeping in mind that he can only be assigned to raid healing) but also brings more. Even if its only trash dps and half of the bosses and even though he cant use mana and debuff slots for his dps because he has to heal between fights still, it is playig hybrid. He is a dps'er quite often and since a shaman doesnt care about the exact dmg number because its inferior to others anyway, its no problem to do both

[DrearyYew]

You have some valid points Tyraeus, though a lot of the things you listed can aswell be done by a full holy paladin right? What you would need, is some sort of a hybrid spec, Im not really familiar with paladin healing as a horde player though but as an exemple, you can spec a shaman to improved totems, providing a boost for 3 mdps in your group, the shaman will still be a main spec healer, he is equally strong at raid healing but completely useless as tank healing. In addition he can do dps on trash and bosses where no heals are needed. No matter how mich dps it is, its some and he doesnt need mana so he can heal between fights so downtime doesnt increase. And for hard bosses where you need all healers you have them all.

So in the end its the same as a resto shaman (keeping in mind that he can only be assigned to raid healing) but also brings more. Even if its only trash dps and half of the bosses and even though he cant use mana and debuff slots for his dps because he has to heal between fights still, it is playig hybrid. He is a dps'er quite often and since a shaman doesnt care about the exact dmg number because its inferior to others anyway, its no problem to do both

Considering Consecration scales with both SP and AP (something HPalas have extremely little of) they won't be able to hold aggro on trash as well as a Ret would be able to. HPalas aren't really capable of dealing supplemental damage like you referenced to Shaman, simply because Paladin damage comes from melee, and melee without AP is ass compared to spells without SP.

Another thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is that a Ret can swap to heal gear and still do pretty solid healing in Ret spec on fights that are extremely anti-melee (Shazzrah and Baron Geddon most notably). They won't be missing a whole lot from the Holy tree. Holy isn't all that great of a tree outside of Illumination, base Paladins are just insane.