why all the bosses are so freaking easy ?

[Taladril]

I am quite sure there will be atleast 4-5 guilds that clear AQ40 the first night and another 10 guilds who clear it the first week. The only fights who are actually hard in AQ40 is twin emps and C'thun.

If there's 15 guilds on this server that clear AQ40 in the first week I'll make a night elf priest

15 for first week I think is a high estimation. There weren't 10 that completed BWL first week and that is far easier than full AQ. My guess would be 6-10. There'll probably be up to 15 that get up to Twin Emps and many more that get a few bosses in.

[netameta]

its cause its 2016 and everyone solved wow. thats why you dont see anyone with dungeon set tier 0 and everyone has truestrike shoulders

Pretty much. Every raiding guild uses add-ons that tells them what to do, add-ons that decurse for them, they all read guides written by people who rather than let others learn, ruined the experience by spoiling every detail of the fights and published it all, along with one (not the only mind you) way to kill them.

Add on top of this that the 1.12 talents are far superior to the 1.0 talents that Molten Core was shipped with and designed around, along with raid mechanics being more straightforward and simple than what we got in wotlk or so, and you get the result you get.

In short, the fights aren't truly hard and the community is filled with minmaxing toxic people, who will simply tell you what spec to use, what to gear to use, where to stand, what spells to use, what spells to not use, etc. One thing that appealed to me from a vanilla server was it being possible to play the game fresh and maybe live all those stories about learning mistakes. The way people operate here, simply makes it impossible to have that and frankly, raiding becomes very unappealing. It's like a poorman's version of the mythic raiding scene in retail, with datamining and world first competitions.

There were guides , and people telling you how to play back then too. and add-ons that helped you decurse(namely decursive - that was later banned by blizzard) so none are valid points except the talent tree changes.

A guild raid where everyone have pre-raid bis, full enchants and full consumables will kill rag before the first dive.

2005:
- Noone used pre-raid bis gear. Warriors in valor gear etc.
- Noone used addons (bigwigs, decursive etc)
- Noone knew how to spec efficiently.
- Noone stacked consumables
- Noone used optimal enchants.
- Noone knew the tactics and mechanics of the bosses.
- Most people who played wow had never played an MMO before.

2016:
- Pre-raid bis is required by most guilds.
- Bigwigs is required by most guilds
- Class leads of most guilds will make sure people dont have a shitty spec.
- Consumables are required by most guilds.
- Optimal enchants is required by most guilds.
- Most people know the tactics.
- Most people have played several MMOs before.

I dis-agree with you completely, even back then guild use addons, (decursive) and spec efficiently, and stacked consumables and optimal enchant and tactics for bosses they did not play other mmos true, that's why wow so magically but that has nothing to do with wow's toughness.


Also as for aq40 or 20 being hard - yesterday i saw a stream of the ptr aq20, by what seemed like random people, They just went in and killed trash no planning - no cc, nothing, then they got to the first boss, and simply charged into him and killed him with no problem, they did the same thing for the second boss at which point i just gave up and closed the stream.

yes aq 20 was easy, but it wasnt "5 men (normal) dungeon with epic gear" easy cc and planning was still required even by high end guilds.

people with thousands of hours of playing vanilla WoW are good at playing vanilla WoW

people without thousands of hours playing vailla WoW aren't very good at playing vanilla WoW

cool thread

Did you bring this pearl of wisdom from some sacred shrine in India ?

If you want to avoid being guilty of using anecdotal evidence, you need some more data to draw conclusions from than "I watched a stream." You can find a decent collection of data by looking at the last ~10 BWL raids on realmplayers. Here are five on the first page (as of the time I wrote this.)

4.5 hours, no nef kill
http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/RaidO ... Raid=33616

4 hours of nef attempts
http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/RaidO ... Raid=33710

3 hour run, only 4 bosses dead
http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/RaidO ... Raid=33737

4 hours, 200 dead, no nef
http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/RaidO ... Raid=33738

2 hours, 80 deaths
http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/RaidO ... Raid=33721

Seriously if those numbers impresses you you havn't played vanilla, some bosses took months to kill even for really good guilds. those, hours your mentioning is nothing.

The main reason is people know exactly what to do on the bosses and how to play their class. In fact, if you want a core spot in any decent guild on this server, you better follow the optimization instructions that no one knew of in retail vanilla. You can easily kill every boss released atm with 40 people who don't have downs.

Right because core spot in decent guild back then was simply given to you because your nice and pretty..
You had to work just as hard if not more, and follow in-guild guides and instructions, some guilds had their own build addons you where forced to use and what not..

[St0rfan]

its cause its 2016 and everyone solved wow. thats why you dont see anyone with dungeon set tier 0 and everyone has truestrike shoulders

Pretty much. Every raiding guild uses add-ons that tells them what to do, add-ons that decurse for them, they all read guides written by people who rather than let others learn, ruined the experience by spoiling every detail of the fights and published it all, along with one (not the only mind you) way to kill them.

Add on top of this that the 1.12 talents are far superior to the 1.0 talents that Molten Core was shipped with and designed around, along with raid mechanics being more straightforward and simple than what we got in wotlk or so, and you get the result you get.

In short, the fights aren't truly hard and the community is filled with minmaxing toxic people, who will simply tell you what spec to use, what to gear to use, where to stand, what spells to use, what spells to not use, etc. One thing that appealed to me from a vanilla server was it being possible to play the game fresh and maybe live all those stories about learning mistakes. The way people operate here, simply makes it impossible to have that and frankly, raiding becomes very unappealing. It's like a poorman's version of the mythic raiding scene in retail, with datamining and world first competitions.

There were guides , and people telling you how to play back then too. and add-ons that helped you decurse(namely decursive - that was later banned by blizzard) so none are valid points except the talent tree changes.

A guild raid where everyone have pre-raid bis, full enchants and full consumables will kill rag before the first dive.

2005:
- Noone used pre-raid bis gear. Warriors in valor gear etc.
- Noone used addons (bigwigs, decursive etc)
- Noone knew how to spec efficiently.
- Noone stacked consumables
- Noone used optimal enchants.
- Noone knew the tactics and mechanics of the bosses.
- Most people who played wow had never played an MMO before.

2016:
- Pre-raid bis is required by most guilds.
- Bigwigs is required by most guilds
- Class leads of most guilds will make sure people dont have a shitty spec.
- Consumables are required by most guilds.
- Optimal enchants is required by most guilds.
- Most people know the tactics.
- Most people have played several MMOs before.

I dis-agree with you completely, even back then guild use addons, (decursive) and spec efficiently, and stacked consumables and optimal enchant and tactics for bosses they did not play other mmos true, that's why wow so magically but that has nothing to do with wow's toughness.


Also as for aq40 or 20 being hard - yesterday i saw a stream of the ptr aq20, by what seemed like random people, They just went in and killed trash no planning - no cc, nothing, then they got to the first boss, and simply charged into him and killed him with no problem, they did the same thing for the second boss at which point i just gave up and closed the stream.

yes aq 20 was easy, but it wasnt "5 men (normal) dungeon with epic gear" easy cc and planning was still required even by high end guilds.

people with thousands of hours of playing vanilla WoW are good at playing vanilla WoW

people without thousands of hours playing vailla WoW aren't very good at playing vanilla WoW

cool thread

Did you bring this pearl of wisdom from some sacred shrine in India ?

If you want to avoid being guilty of using anecdotal evidence, you need some more data to draw conclusions from than "I watched a stream." You can find a decent collection of data by looking at the last ~10 BWL raids on realmplayers. Here are five on the first page (as of the time I wrote this.)

4.5 hours, no nef kill
http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/RaidO ... Raid=33616

4 hours of nef attempts
http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/RaidO ... Raid=33710

3 hour run, only 4 bosses dead
http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/RaidO ... Raid=33737

4 hours, 200 dead, no nef
http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/RaidO ... Raid=33738

2 hours, 80 deaths
http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/RaidO ... Raid=33721

Seriously if those numbers impresses you you havn't played vanilla, some bosses took months to kill even for really good guilds. those, hours your mentioning is nothing.

The main reason is people know exactly what to do on the bosses and how to play their class. In fact, if you want a core spot in any decent guild on this server, you better follow the optimization instructions that no one knew of in retail vanilla. You can easily kill every boss released atm with 40 people who don't have downs.

Right because core spot in decent guild back then was simply given to you because your nice and pretty..
You had to work just as hard if not more, and follow in-guild guides and instructions, some guilds had their own build addons you where forced to use and what not..

The TLDR point I'm trying to make it this: People back then was simply worse, less informed and thus peformed alot more poorly due to these facts.

[Dr. Doom]

To be fully fair, the very first lockout of BWL (when no add-ons or guides existed), a guild went 7/8, only being unable to kill Nefarian. Think it was called 'Fury' or something.

I'll doublecheck.


Edit:

Yep. Got it (2006 thread that discussed pre-nerf Cthun being impossible):

http://forums.elitistjerks.com/forums/t ... un/?page=4

I agree with you that the encounters being released horribly out of tune is a result of poor development and knowledge of the game. Things like BWL's initial state where guilds blew through everything (some got stuck after Vael, but Fury cleaned house up to Nef on their first reset) are clearly just miscalculations or really bad predictions of the capability of high-end raiding guilds.

[Rylox]

AQ20 seems 'too easy' on PTR because it is being done in full tier 2 while tuned to be completed in dungeon gear.

[Rotgur]

Because in vanilla wow the game was new, so nobody knew 100% what to do, but it is now 2016, and vanilla wow came out in 2004. That's 12 years, and in that time people have found out everything they need to know about the game, so nowadays everyone knows the boss mechanics and know exactly what to do whereas in vanilla wow the game was still new.

[Dr. Doom]

https://manaflask.com/articles/a-histor ... ts-vanilla

In more detail:

The raid was released with patch 1.6: Assault on Blackwing Lair, on 12.07.2005.

Razorgore the Untamed
Ascent US, 12.07.2005

Vaelastrasz the Corrupt
Ascent US, 12.07.2005

Broodlord Lashlayer
Fury US, 13.07.2005

Firemaw
Death & Taxes 12.07.2005

Ebonroc
Fury US, 13.07.2005

Flamegor
Fury US, 13.07.2005

Chromaggus
Fury US, 13.07.2005

2 days to go 7/8.

[Robotron]

2016:
- Pre-raid bis is required by most guilds.
- Bigwigs is required by most guilds
- Class leads of most guilds will make sure people dont have a shitty spec.
- Consumables are required by most guilds.
- Optimal enchants is required by most guilds.
- Most people know the tactics.
- Most people have played several MMOs before.

Exactly my point. There's no discovery point to it. If any person joins today's vanilla private servers telling himself "Oh, maybe I should discover this game by myself" it's just impossible. It truly ressembles more a corporation that reassesses internal procedures only if there is a credible chance of quarterly profit rising by a small percentile; for the rest, you simply fall in line and do what you're told following the proven procedure.

Begs the question, why play this at all instead of mythic competitions for world firsts in retail? Those are current (no guides done to copy) and relevant and guilds that engage in it get some sponsorship ad deals or something. And if there's something people agree upon, is that it's (strictly speaking) harder and takes more wipes.

It's worth playing this server if you want to experience Vanilla progression again (or in my case, experience it for the first time). Thing is, on retail, most guilds--especially with the advent of that stupid boss ability guide in Firelands or whatever it was--go into new boss fights with strats already planned out. Why? Other guilds did it before them, and there are Youtube videos. You don't truly get to experience the unknown in retail unless you're on the absolute bleeding edge of progression and are progressing on bosses at the same time as the top 10 world guilds or before said guilds have released kill videos.

Also, Vanilla had no mechanics that are even close to the level of 25 man Heroic Lich King's Defile or had DPS checks as tight as, say, 25 man Heroic Putricide (I think about two dozen guilds killed him before the 5% buff) or fights like original Yogg-0 (only 11 guilds killed him pre-nerf).

[Keftenk]

Well...there was C'Thun pre-nerf, but that was more of a numbers issue.

[Robotron]

Well...there was C'Thun pre-nerf, but that was more of a numbers issue.

Wasn't he literally impossible because of an encounter-breaking bug?