Increasing Population

[killa162]

No. Not right. If they open up a second server that would be because of demand for it. It doesn't follow that they should therefor make the old service worse.

If they open a new server then players can transfer to it if they think that is preferable and stay if they think that is preferable.

If the amount of transfers are really small it would just show that there wasn't demand for a second server. That most players prefer a server that at times has lag over a server with a smaller population. Putting a queue would create artificial demand by ruining the server for many users.

Well both servers would therefore have pop limits, not just the first server. But like a good pop limit would be like... 6-8k sounds about reasonable. That's what we have now, but if the population continues to climb and 10-13k becomes our norm for when we log in and /who to see how many people are logged in, then you know the server is getting too crowded.

Still not making sense.

I guess it would be fine if the new server had a cap. Then anyone who thinks that a cap is a decent solution can transfer there and those who think it is a horrible raid-killing abomination of a concept can stay on the old realm with no queue.

Players wanting a second server because they want to transfer away from what they consider a bad situation is fine. But trying to fix what isn't broken by breaking it for others is just silly. You still haven't even tried to explain why it would be needed to put a queue on a server you are transferring away from anyway.

I think if no cap is put on the realm then the second realm has no meaning. the whole point is to spread the pop. So if you enforce a cap then people WILL transfer. Then eventually the cap won't matter since people will just transfer until the pop is balanced. Again like my main post has stated, these are ideas, and ideas alone. Not going to be some perfect idea. Came up with these on the spot.

if that's your perspective on levelling then you probably won't even make it to 60, sorry to tell you

I'm leveling up just fine, I'm sorry that I don't no life the leveling process each and every night. Sorry to tell you, but you're and idiot.

Don't mind these tarded trolls OP, the population is fucked up indeed and the chinese are ruining it. 13 k online, the realm is bloody unplayable.

Your post kinda ruins the whole point of the no racism towards other countries.

People calling you a racist are making fun of the gamemasters, not you.

There were already tons of similar threads, OP, but every time they just say we should accept people from the whole world and the lag that comes with them.

ur racist btw

People calling me racist are in fact trolls. Nothing to do with GM's. Troll.

I think a new Timeline would be Sweet. Would reroll although i have 2 lvl60

But why would you want to start all over? With an entire new timeline and everything.

[RaCks]

Hey I am new around here.
Just wanted to ask where i can see the amount of players online on the realms. Didnt want to make a whole new thread just to ask.

[Tinkertown]

I think if no cap is put on the realm then the second realm has no meaning.

The thing is that a second server has no meaning for players who like it the way it is. And that's fine.

the whole point is to spread the pop. So if you enforce a cap then people WILL transfer.

No. The whole point is to give players who do not like the current situation an alternative that better suits their taste.

I think I see the difference between you and me. I want players who want to transfer away from whatever they consider to be a problem to be able to do so. If the team can afford a second server that is. You want to throw people who are perfectly content and want to stay off the server. Because...otherwise it may look like a stupid decition to open up a second server if few ppl choose to transfer?

I wonder if this comes from the idea that everyone deep down prefers a less crowded server or something else. Let me assure you that isn't the case. If the server could handle 20k I'd love 20k online. The devs have clearly shown that they are fine with some dynamic non-blizzlike fixes to compensate and I love it.

Remember, if everyone chooses freely to stay or go the number who transfer away will be exactly the right amount. Those who after weighing the good against the bad decide that they want to.

[Marharbal]

I came to a somewhat similar conclusion as killa162 put it.

( https://forum.nostalrius.org/viewtopic. ... 0&start=90 )

As for Tinkertown:
It's problematic to argue with the ideal of "free choice" here. To assume, that as long as the server with its population rolls on without a collapse is a sign of healthiness (= majority of people content) is also a misconception.
It's really hard to argue with the "wants of most players" on this forum, when most players probably not even use it.
If we try to lead a discussion with the ideal of actually exchanging information and coming to a better understanding (instead of pure rhetorics) i would distance myself from solely basing my argumentation on "Will of the playerbase" - something everyone has his own totally subjective understanding of.

Some better arguments might be based on the following:
The size of the world vs. Players online: Yes, you can alter mob-spawnrates, make orespawns, herbspawns aso. dynamic, but the world itself stays the same size. This results in hugely crowded areas. Could this lead to a situation where the the game experience changes fundamentally? In what way?

I think the fact, that Blizzard themselves used queues is something, that we shouldn't ignore.

[killa162]

I came to a somewhat similar conclusion as killa162 put it.

( https://forum.nostalrius.org/viewtopic. ... 0&start=90 )

As for Tinkertown:
It's problematic to argue with the ideal of "free choice" here. To assume, that as long as the server with its population rolls on without a collapse is a sign of healthiness (= majority of people content) is also a misconception.
It's really hard to argue with the "wants of most players" on this forum, when most players probably not even use it.
If we try to lead a discussion with the ideal of actually exchanging information and coming to a better understanding (instead of pure rhetorics) i would distance myself from solely basing my argumentation on "Will of the playerbase" - something everyone has his own totally subjective understanding of.

Some better arguments might be based on the following:
The size of the world vs. Players online: Yes, you can alter mob-spawnrates, make orespawns, herbspawns aso. dynamic, but the world itself stays the same size. This results in hugely crowded areas. Could this lead to a situation where the the game experience changes fundamentally? In what way?

I think the fact, that Blizzard themselves used queues is something, that we shouldn't ignore.

That's a nice way to put it that I didn't think of.

[Adwena]

The amount of racism on this thread is on industrial level!

[Tinkertown]

As long as transfers aren't possible, I agree 100%. There is no reason to think that most people think x or y, neither a nor b.

However. If they finally open a second PvP server. Then players really do have a choise. And that is the point from where I argue. At that point players really can choose. I think that most players would stay on the huge queuefree server because it is awesome even with its flaws. And I frankly don't see why certain forum posters so want to impose their idea of a queue on us.

As for Blizzard having queues. That is true. But it is going to get convoluted if we debate that too much. My guild had a system where one officer had (almost) everyones account info and you could just email/sms him and he'd queue you. Other guilds just had friends log them in. Blizzard didn't care so it sort of worked (they still don't, world first Blackhand involved account sharing, no secret) Any discussion on this topic will thus lead to a discussion on how raiders are supposed to circumvent the queue. Because that is what we did. #Blizzlike.

A queue without a way for raiding guilds to circumvent the queue without risking bans isn't Blizzlike at all and very problematic. That is just the harsh truth. Halfway Blizzlike (queue, no account sharing) would be the least blizzlike experience for raiders and that sort of throws the entire "but Blizzard did it" argument on its head. Doesn't it?

[konked]

we need a second pvp server, having delay isnt fun on a pvp server.

Massive overpopulation is a problem

[Marharbal]

You're right: The idea of a queue system indeed shouldn't lead to long queues. Its only reason for existence is (1) to give, as killa162 put it, an impulse for switching to a second PvP-Server ( characters intact) - or (2) at least to cap the population roughly at the current population (at this point of time maybe 10-12k?) to prevent the dynamic of further growing.
As for the first point: A new server also bears the problem of the initial fear of switching. People can't predict the momentum of the masses and so they rather stay and react than actually act themselves (fear to be on an half empty server). The queue could reassure them, that there will be enough other players to switch, because the advantages for everyone then are obvious.
-> To simply bring out a second pvp-server therefore won't lead to a "free choice" of ppl i think. Of course you can argue, that the queue as an instrument of pressure neither would do that. That's is why i don't start arguing with "free choice" in the first place (don't won't to get too off topic - but i don't think free choice is how people work, at least not in masses).
As for the second point: When the cap is installed roughly around the current peak of players online, new players will get more easily quenched when being faced with a queue, than players that already invested.
-> Such a cap could lead to a stable population without an increase of the queue, but this is only a theory of my own (any experiences that contradict my assumption? ).

I also want to emphasize, that a queue-system can be implemented gradually, therefore supporting a "soft change", so that it won't stir up the player base all to much.

In general i think, that a queue-system itself is maybe the best effective way of taking control of the population-growth. You can combine it with a new server ask. - i think there is a too narrow-minded conception of the "queue-system" around here. The extreme cap at, lets say 6000 ppl would indeed stir up the player base, would indeed lead to huge queues and the problems that were described by Tinkertown. But there is a huge flexibility on how to apply a queue and i think it these need to be discussed .

----

The most complex point is to predict, what further population growth will lead to (even if the debs can "handle" the lags aso.).

The best comment on that i found at another spot on this forum (General talk). The forum-account of this person no longer exists as it seems, so i simply quote his statement. It's his observation of the the changes he saw so far happening with the growth of population that i think are important (he actually does not suggest a queue, only a new server):

I had made my own thread, trying to bring up some of the issues in one post, but that was obviously locked and I was asked to post here instead.

We really need more attention to this problem if the devs are going to prioritize and address this issue. I think the only way we can make something happen is if we get more people to talk about it in a serious manner on the forums.

Below is what I had written

Try logging on to "the other" vanilla server for a moment, do a few starting quests and feel the difference.

I did, and my mind was blown at how ridiculous the current situation really is. It's as if I had forgotten just how big of a difference it is between playing without any lag, with propper draw distance (of mobs/npcs/players) and all the other bullshit that is Nostalrius atm.

I don't ever want to reroll on another server, and I probably wont unless this gets even worse, but atm there are no signs of improvement. And that is not with lack of trying from the Nost devs. It's clear they are trying to improve the player experience, but it is so blatantly obvious that they are going about it the wrong way. I know I'm not the only one saying that, because it's become a daily discussion within our guild, between friends, in world chat and most importantly on the forums.

Ever since Nostalrius was launched, player population has been both a blessing and an ever increasing issue. The first few weeks and months we had issues with some lag, but mostly server crashes. They fixed it and the population kept growing. When the server started lagging during peak times due to too many players, the devs improved the server further and the lag decreased for a while. Once the server once again had outgrown the code improvements, the server was moved to new hardware, but as we all know, the population kept growing. More improvements has been applied, but the population keeps chasing and catching up with the improvements.

The last half year or so however, the improvements has been more compromises than improvements. Draw distance has been reduced and loading times of NPCs have been increased. During peak hours atm, you may have to wait up to a minute for an NPC in any major city to load, and when it's as worst you have to relog just for the bank, the flight master, the auctioneers or any other NPC to load. This is so stupid I have no words for it, and these are just the issues you face when trying to do your normal city activities.

If you want to go farm something when there are around 12k people online you need to try and ignore the fact that mobs load as you run on top of them, looting can take several seconds and trading between characters has been broken for weeks. You can forget to effectively "swingtimer-kite" a mob due to the way they behave when the server is lagging and the general ability lag is horrible. PvP is just no fun when you have to play around the lag. The ways you would normally react to avoid spells, interrupt, slow, root or in general use your abilities does not work and it becomes a different game, one which I don't enjoy at all.

Almost in anger I remember back when people were complaining about not having a PvE server and a large amount of people kep on saying "it will never happen" or "we don't want that, it will divide the community and destroy the server". By now I think anyone who have some sense of reality have realized that there are more than enough people to sustain two server communities, but also that without some realistic alternative to rerolling from lvl 1 there will never be enough people leaving Nostalrius PvP to keep the population at a steady, acceptably low number.

As more and more people start playing, even more will hear about Nostalrius by word of mouth, and since many new players start because they know someone on the server already, the vast majority will start on the PvP server. While we have not actually seen an exponential growth of players, the growth has still been staggering (2000 new players the last ~2 weeks https://forum.nostalrius.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=32610). My guess is the only thing preventing the population from actually skyrocketing is the lag, which means every time the devs reduce the lag, the population will pretty much instantly grow enough to remove any sign of those improvements.

There is simply no way that the devs will ever be able to keep the lag in check. We are simply doomed to play on a laggy server until the admins realize that the current situation is not OK. The scary thing is that that may never happen, because if nothing is done, the current population will probably still be stable as new players simply replace those who quit.

I am unable to see anything but two solutions to this problem. Not allowing more accounts to be created, or opening a second server (and possibly more in the future). Locking account creation is a horrible thing to do, and may solve nothing as there are tens of thousands of unused acounts already that could be traded and sold. It could however solve this issue once and for all by forcing new players who wish to try the vanilla private server experience to move to other projects. That may then sufficiently increase the population on those other projects such that even if account creation was opened up again on Nost, new players were more likely to choose one of the other projects. Atm I see no reason for a new player to start on Nost rather than Kronos besides the lack of population, and with the amount of new people starting on Nost every week, the Kronos population could be solved in a few weeks if people started there instead of here.

However, the only actual solution I'm left with is opening one or more PvP servers with free character transfers. This is requested more and more frequently on these forums, but there seems to be no official acknowledgement of the need for such action. Is it just pride and stupidity among the admins that prevent them from seeing the issue as it is now? Do they never actually play on the server themselves to see just how horrible it is? With more than 12k players online every day it may be hard to imagine that there is a problem if you never actually play yourself. Unless we want to get an ever increasing replacement of active players on the realm, where old people quit and new people start, this has to be solved properly.

Yes, servers cost loads of money to run, and yes, maybe the devs even are considering to spend the donation money on more servers, but without an official announcement of such plans I realize there may be lack of funds to run another server (if money even is the issue). I'm confident that enough money to solve any such issue could be acquired in a matter of weeks if some actual plans to solve the population issue by opening more servers. I will be the first to donate in such an event, but there is no way I'm donating until some actual plans are put out in the open, because currently I am loosing faith in the server each day.

I have completely avoided writing anything about potential issues with splitting the population in two. I know there are plenty who still think that it's a bad idea and will "kill world pvp" or whatever some people are capable of imagining. I on the other hand am pretty sure that if there were currently two PvP servers, where a one-way free character transfer was possible, each of them would have more than enough players to make two far better servers than the one PvP server currently is. I don't even want to start talking about how far from "blizzlike" things like world bosses currently are, and I hope I never have to experience Silithus with the current population. Sure, it would be amazing fun -- for 1 hour. It will be nothing but a clusterfuck and in no way be representant of how Silithus was in retail on an average high pop server.

There is no way to defend the current server, while still wanting a "blizzlike" experience. In my eyes this server is currently closer to a "fun-server" than a "blizzlike", quality server. Silithus will be a clusterfuck. Those who want to enjoy the game for what it was and not lag around, waiting for NPCs to spawn should probably prepare for dissapointment. If you still think the lag is ok, and the server is playable, maybe you are lucky and never play while the server peaks, or you have just forgotten what a lag-free server, with proper draw distance and loading NPCs feels like. It actually amaze me that this many new players can even stand it when they are not already invested with hundreds or thousands of hours played here already.

End rant.

[Tinkertown]

So, all the guilds that have raiders that work full time and get home more or less just in time for their raids. What should they do? Should the entire guild transfer? Unlikely unless they want to for other reasons.

Should they wait, delay the raid every night for however long the queue is? Should they reqruit new players and leave those raiders who are stuck in the queue out? Should they accountshare and risk permanent bans?

All options suck, a lot. A 30 min queue means 30 min less gametime for a non-raider but, it is just that and they can often do some other activity that they were going to do later while in the queue.

For a raider a 30 min queue can easily mean "no raid for you!" or 30+ people in frustrated wait. A 60 min queue. Its a guildkiller. A queue is a horrible fit for an activity that requires 40 people to get together on a set schedule.

Because of this it would only make sense to let raiders somehow skip the queue. A fairly small percentage of players anyway. Would you get behind such an admittedly unfair system?

I still think that no queue at all is by far the best option. But this at least would not wreck raiding guilds for no good reason.