Working Summoning Stones

[riq and snog]

*gets popcorn*

Blizzlike is a definition here:-)
i think adding these convinient things like summon stone (without lfg finder) or a command to que bgs from all over the world or even a worldchat for both fractions will not ruin your precious game experience... still its up to the devs to twerk their server. I can live without them!

[Chritz]

Your point is moot, what you want is different to what people here want. What people here want is Vanilla, as it was. Not WoW as it could've been had Blizzard catered to a small minority of people.

If you want Vanilla with extra shit added (like reduced respec costs, summoning stones, cheaper mounts and the ability to buy gear) then go to Kronos.

I think that the majority of posters pro-minor change (summing stone) really mean just that..or at least that is what I meant when I posted this....just the summoning stone..not cheap mounts, not cheaper respects blah blah. I think everyone UBER pro-blizzlike is just getting a little to scared that the change WOULD TEAR THE VERY FABRIC OF THE GAME!! It wouldn't..It would be a minor change with a minor effect.

They already took it upon themselves to add custom rare-spawn creeps with unique scripts.. I LOVE that idea, very small change, very simple and will have a great effect as it breathes new life into an older game. Wait...Those creeps are blizz-like WTF IS THIS !??!?!?! Might as well tell the devs to delete those right away or you'll stop playing because the original didn't have them.

[NicolasMage]

I havent bumped into anything that wasn't in retail Vanilla, and that's how I want it to stay. No custom shit, none at all (no matter how minor).

When one thing gets tweaked people start wanting more and more things tweaked.

[Winterflaw]

Your point is moot, what you want is different to what people here want.

So if someone has a view which differs from the (purported, at any rate - who knows what the people who have not spoken want?) view the majority, *they should not even speak up?*

How would views ever change?

What people here want is Vanilla, as it was. Not WoW as it could've been had Blizzard catered to a small minority of people.

What does that even mean?

Suppose that minority - and, ha, a SMALL minority, no less - wanted all trees to be pink and sheep to fly. Would it be a good idea? no. Suppose the majority want an idea which is also actually harmful - but they don't realise it. Would it be a good idea? still no.

You've not actually argued or indeed even responded to the *idea itself*. You have taken a dogmatic view - VANILLA. BLIZZARD. I HEAR NOTHING ELSE. It's religious, you know? iconoclastic. Whether or not the suggestion is *good* - and would *improve the game* - has not been part of the response. This is not reasoning, or rational.

Blizzard were not perfect. The game can be improved. Of course, such a thing is easily done wrongly - we act to improve, but get it wrong. There has to be enourmous modesty and above all, *experimentation*, which is easily undone if it works badly.

However, there is I think a tendancy for people to want things which make life easy. I think if in general changes were adopted because the mass of people wished for them, where the mass of people are not game designers, the quality of the game would go down.

Perhaps we could contact some of the original architects and designers of vanilla WoW, and ask them what changes they would like to see.

[popezaphod]

I havent bumped into anything that wasn't in retail Vanilla, and that's how I want it to stay. No custom shit, none at all (no matter how minor).

When one thing gets tweaked people start wanting more and more things tweaked.

This.

You want summoning stones, dual-specs, and other niceties, go play on a non-Vanilla server. Simple as that.

[NicolasMage]

That wasn't his point, his point was "You didn't quit because you were happy with changes". Which is a pretty silly accusation to make when I'm the one arguing against change.

Vanilla wasn't perfect, nobody is going to argue that it was. But I (and others, for the sake of arguing I'll just say "we") want Vanilla the way it was simply because that's how it was. The server is called "Nostalrius", which I assume is based off of the word "Nostalgia".

The reason change is bad is because different people want different things. It's safe to assume that the majority of people playing on a vanilla server are there because they want vanilla. The community can all agree that they want vanilla (They wouldn't be here if they didn't?), what they can't agree on is adding other "custom" things.

Lets assume that half the community want summoning stones, and half dont. Then half the people who wanted summoning stones also want cheaper mounts, you'd then have a quatre of people happy because they have cheaper mounts and summoning stones. A quatre of people happy because they have cheaper mounts, but unhappy about summoning stones, then a quatre of people unhappy about summoning stones but happy about mounts, and lastly, a quatre that are extremely pissed off because they didn't want either.

Which brings me back to my previous point, it's much easier to just keep things Vanilla. If people want the extra crap they need only wait for Kronos. (Or to play a different version of the game that has all the extra stuff)

[DarkPhenomenon]

I came here for a non P2W, fully Blizzlike Vanilla experience because that's what I enjoyed.

[Winterflaw]

That wasn't his point, his point was "You didn't quit because you were happy with changes". Which is a pretty silly accusation to make when I'm the one arguing against change.

I'm afraid I've not read so far back in the thread; your reply caught my eye and I replied to that.

Vanilla wasn't perfect, nobody is going to argue that it was. But I (and others, for the sake of arguing I'll just say "we") want Vanilla the way it was simply because that's how it was. The server is called "Nostalrius", which I assume is based off of the word "Nostalgia".

The reason change is bad is because different people want different things. It's safe to assume that the majority of people playing on a vanilla server are there because they want vanilla. The community can all agree that they want vanilla (They wouldn't be here if they didn't?), what they can't agree on is adding other "custom" things.

I'm not sure there is any need to make this assumption. Certainly people are here, we can say everyone here likely wants this server more than any other - but as to why? we only need to understand why if we intend to try to make decisions on the behalf of others, in their best interests, without their consent or involvement.

Lets assume that half the community want summoning stones, and half dont. Then half the people who wanted summoning stones also want cheaper mounts, you'd then have a quatre of people happy because they have cheaper mounts and summoning stones. A quatre of people happy because they have cheaper mounts, but unhappy about summoning stones, then a quatre of people unhappy about summoning stones but happy about mounts, and lastly, a quatre that are extremely pissed off because they didn't want either.

Sounds reasonable in and of itself. I'd be in the pissed off quarter

In practise, most people I think would be fairly unresponsive. People generally care less about things than I do (and than you do as well, I suspect). This might be less so in Nost, because of the filtering effect - to be here, you have to care at least a bit in the first place.

Which brings me back to my previous point, it's much easier to just keep things Vanilla. If people want the extra crap they need only wait for Kronos. (Or to play a different version of the game that has all the extra stuff)

My feeling is that it would be easy to ruin Vanilla, but we should not have an outright *ban* on modification.

It seems to me if there is a process for modification, the more consensus is needed for change, then the greater the need for it must be. If there is process for change, and it has a high bar, then we might hope that only the grossest issues would bear modification.

[NicolasMage]

There isn't a flat ban on modification, I'm just highly opposed to anything that affects more than just one player. If a player is upset about simple matters that only affect him/herself (such as UI layout), they can get add-ons to modify that.

The problem is that the modifications that people are asking for, no matter how simple they may be, would ruin the experience for others. For example, if meeting stones were changed to summoning stones, then that on friendly warlock who willingly summons the slow people/slackers wouldn't be so highly sought after.

If mounts were cheaper then gold wouldn't be as valuble. As such, the rich people who play simply to have vast amounts of gold would be affected.


Each change affects different people differently, changing one thing that somebody may see as simple can possibly ruin the entire game for somebody else.

[eotrampage]

Your point is moot, what you want is different to what people here want.

So if someone has a view which differs from the (purported, at any rate - who knows what the people who have not spoken want?) view the majority, *they should not even speak up?*

How would views ever change?

What people here want is Vanilla, as it was. Not WoW as it could've been had Blizzard catered to a small minority of people.

What does that even mean?

Suppose that minority - and, ha, a SMALL minority, no less - wanted all trees to be pink and sheep to fly. Would it be a good idea? no. Suppose the majority want an idea which is also actually harmful - but they don't realise it. Would it be a good idea? still no.

You've not actually argued or indeed even responded to the *idea itself*. You have taken a dogmatic view - VANILLA. BLIZZARD. I HEAR NOTHING ELSE. It's religious, you know? iconoclastic. Whether or not the suggestion is *good* - and would *improve the game* - has not been part of the response. This is not reasoning, or rational.

Blizzard were not perfect. The game can be improved. Of course, such a thing is easily done wrongly - we act to improve, but get it wrong. There has to be enourmous modesty and above all, *experimentation*, which is easily undone if it works badly.

However, there is I think a tendancy for people to want things which make life easy. I think if in general changes were adopted because the mass of people wished for them, where the mass of people are not game designers, the quality of the game would go down.

Perhaps we could contact some of the original architects and designers of vanilla WoW, and ask them what changes they would like to see.

This guy speaks the truth, and nice pwnage of that idiot at the same time!
Cookie for you!