PSA: Ferals Stop Using +Wep Dmg

[Dr. Doom]

Whatever, point still stands. Playing a gimped spec and claiming it's viable

I think the server needs to collectively go look up what the word "viable" means because I see this sentence get thrown around alot and the person saying it clearly has no idea the meaning of the word.

I think what you mean to say is that they aren't "OPTIMAL" but they are still certainly viable(usable, workable, possible) specs. This fucking 15 year old pve content isn't hard what so ever to clear. Naxx might be the only vanilla instance where you will need OPTIMAL raid composition. Other than that it wont kill your raid to have a feral/boomkin or a ret pally dps in it.

I see raids with retribution paladins constantly, with feral druids, some moonkins, several shadow priests, etc.

Honestly, for all the misuse the word viable gets in this server, I would have expected someone to come up with a definition for it. Then again, this isn't the first time I ask someone what is the definition of a word they just used and they can't really answer it, classic hilarity.

Let's propose something then:

Viable:

- Tank:
* What is the minimum amount of damage reduction necessary to tank a boss, without dying, and allowing healers to not run out of mana before the encounter is over.
* What is the minimum amount of threat that needs to be created in order for DPS to do the required amount of damage to kill it, before the enrage timer hits/healers run out of mana.
* Is there a mechanic that needs to be performed correctly beyond threat generation and mitigation? Maybe recurrent taunting? (Rajaxx after knockback for example)

- Healer:
All classes that can heal, have healing tiers so the point is just about gear

* What is the minimum amount of +healing, mana, etc, required to keep the tank/DPS alive until they can finish the encounter?

- DPS:

* What is the minimum DPS that every damage dealer needs to bring to the table to kill the boss before he enrages/healers go oom?
Say:
X guy has this amount of HP. He needs to die before 3 minutes, excluding the 3 tanks or so and the 8-10 healers or so, how much damage do the 25-30 DPS need to do? Divide that number over /25 or /30, and you get what is the actual number where a DPS spec is viable or not.

[Blib]

I didn't think coming up with a definition was needed tbh since dictionaries are so easily accessible.
Capable of working successfully - there you have your definition.

Before you turn this into some pseudo intellectual debate, I know success is relative and this game is easy as shiet. Sure, Onyxia can be done with priests alone, so technically that is a success, but it isn't ideal at all.
If your class can't compete on dps and you don't bring any unique utility that better classes/specs can't bring then your spec isn't viable in my opinion.

[Dr. Doom]

I didn't think coming up with a definition was needed tbh since dictionaries are so easily accessible.
Capable of working successfully - there you have your definition.

Before you turn this into some pseudo intellectual debate, I know success is relative and this game is easy as shiet. Sure, Onyxia can be done with priests alone, so technically that is a success, but it isn't ideal at all.
If your class can't compete on dps and you don't bring any unique utility that better classes/specs can't bring then your spec isn't viable in my opinion.

Internal incoherence. Either you go with the dictionary definition or your own custom made thing.

Viability in this game is easily verified: Is doing this enough to kill the stuff I want to kill? If yes, this is viable. If not, this isn't viable.

You need a different word for what you mean in the last line.

[Blib]

Mate in any game I've ever played every single person have understood straight away what I meant when I've used the word viable and I'm sure the same thing goes for you, so I don't understand this hairsplitter mentality.

Going by your logic is, shovelling snow with a spoon a viable option?
Sure it can be done, but I can mention tons of better options. If you really pulled out that big ol' dictionary I'm sure you would find "Practicable" in the description of the word "Viable".
It isn't black or white like you make it out to be.

[Dr. Doom]

Mate in any game I've ever played every single person have understood straight away what I meant when I've used the word viable and I'm sure the same thing goes for you, so I don't understand this hairsplitter mentality.

Going by your logic is, shovelling snow with a spoon a viable option?
Sure it can be done, but I can mention tons of better options. If you really pulled out that big ol' dictionary I'm sure you would find "Practicable" in the description of the word "Viable".
It isn't black or white like you make it out to be.

Phallacy.
Scale.

How much longer does it take for a raid that has a few retri paladins, one moonkin and 1 feral druid to kill a boss, compared to a raid that only has tryhardy specs. 1 minute?

How much longer does it take to use a spoon compared to a shovel to clean a driveway. Comparing sizes of the tool, 50 times longer, maybe more?

I go at it mathematically. If the dps a guy brings is enough to beat enrage timers, isn't he viable?

Buzzwords that are repeated again and again, don't change in meaning just because of a small tribe of people use it incorrectly.

[Darkwinjax]

Mate in any game I've ever played every single person have understood straight away what I meant when I've used the word viable and I'm sure the same thing goes for you, so I don't understand this hairsplitter mentality.

Going by your logic is, shovelling snow with a spoon a viable option?
Sure it can be done, but I can mention tons of better options. If you really pulled out that big ol' dictionary I'm sure you would find "Practicable" in the description of the word "Viable".
It isn't black or white like you make it out to be.

Phallacy.
Scale.

How much longer does it take for a raid that has a few retri paladins, one moonkin and 1 feral druid to kill a boss, compared to a raid that only has tryhardy specs. 1 minute?

How much longer does it take to use a spoon compared to a shovel to clean a driveway. Comparing sizes of the tool, 50 times longer, maybe more?

I go at it mathematically. If the dps a guy brings is enough to beat enrage timers, isn't he viable?

Buzzwords that are repeated again and again, don't change in meaning just because of a small tribe of people use it incorrectly.

Considering that we are clearing BWL in 30 mins while most guilds are clearing it in 2 hours, it comes down to wether you like to speed run content with competent players or be in a shitty BWL run that takes 30 mins to clear surpression room, so yea, wether something is viable or not is up for each guild to decide, you can't expect players who refuse to raid with subpar specs / classes to think that anything that isn't maximized is viable, the spoon analogy is on an over the top scale, but if you are clearing snow with 39 other people, and those are all using their best spoons while you bring a fork, why would you expect those 39 people to go along with your shit just because it's also viable for you to clear snow with a fork?

[Dr. Doom]

Considering that we are clearing BWL in 30 mins while most guilds are clearing it in 2 hours, it comes down to wether you like to speed run content with competent players or be in a shitty BWL run that takes 30 mins to clear surpression room, so yea, wether something is viable or not is up for each guild to decide, you can't expect players who refuse to raid with subpar specs / classes to think that anything that isn't maximized is viable, the spoon analogy is on an over the top scale, but if you are clearing snow with 39 other people, and those are all using their best spoons while you bring a fork, why would you expect those 39 people to go along with your shit just because it's also viable for you to clear snow with a fork?

Sure then, just means it needs to be specified. "Is X spec viable to clear this in 30 minutes or not?"
Viable only leaves it hanging for interpretation.

Good point.

[Blib]

Considering that we are clearing BWL in 30 mins while most guilds are clearing it in 2 hours, it comes down to wether you like to speed run content with competent players or be in a shitty BWL run that takes 30 mins to clear surpression room, so yea, wether something is viable or not is up for each guild to decide, you can't expect players who refuse to raid with subpar specs / classes to think that anything that isn't maximized is viable, the spoon analogy is on an over the top scale, but if you are clearing snow with 39 other people, and those are all using their best spoons while you bring a fork, why would you expect those 39 people to go along with your shit just because it's also viable for you to clear snow with a fork?

Sure then, just means it needs to be specified. "Is X spec viable to clear this in 30 minutes or not?"
Viable only leaves it hanging for interpretation.

Good point.

Viability always depends on context, obviously.
https://forum.nostalrius.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=41579&start=10#p286709
I addressed a druid who was comparing his dps to mages and warriors, from a tryhard perspective druid dps isn't viable at all.

If your goal is to just make it through, a few memespecs won't do much overall difference.

[Dr. Doom]

Viability always depends on context, obviously.
https://forum.nostalrius.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=41579&start=10#p286709
I addressed a druid who was comparing his dps to mages and warriors, from a tryhard perspective druid dps isn't viable at all.

If your goal is to just make it through, a few memespecs won't do much overall difference.

Agreed.

[stimz]

This was already sorted out several times before and clarified by Pottu:

Specific weapon enchants shouldn't affect a shapeshifted druid. After all, he's fighting with claws and teeth, not the weapon.
All weapon bonuses, or bonuses that are a direct addition to stats, affect shapeshifted damage since claws and teeth count as unarmed, and unarmed also reaps a benefit from these items.

I personally think this server is too far from blizzlike to nitpick things that aren't worth nerfing, I'm just saying that losing those enchants is pretty fkn huge for a spec that already doesn't shine with them, at least a 60.