Serious Question

[Azalus]

So after all of the tests that I have taken part in, as well as read about, am I still the only person wondering what the "more than 16 developers" actually scripted "since 2010"?

It's easy to go back and look at all the things that weren't scripted .

The PvP bug reports are still viewable on the forums.

The low level dungeons were all bugged to some degree or another. This also showcased bugs such as being able to multi-shot and cleave your allies, as well as other spell and ability bugs not found in the PvP test.

The hack test showed that the server really didn't have any protection in place. I personally talked to someone that has been in the private server for years, and every hack that has worked on projects in the past was working here.

Finally, the raid test showed that MC was essentially unscripted. Mobs were chained together incorrectly, and bosses weren't scripted right.


I know that after each of these sessions, and even in-between the different sections for each session, the developers were able to fix almost, if not all of the problems.

But. That still begs the question of what they've been doing over the last 5 years with over 16 developers? They had an instant level 60 server, were the raids and dungeons just as bad for that? Did they start over and re-script a whole new core?

I'm asking this because I don't think that raids are going to be as easy to hot-fix, especially once we get into BWL, and then the AQ event, as well as the raid, are notably difficult to script. Nax arguably being the hardest.

I don't know about all of you, but this is starting to feel like Vengeance of Azeroth. It looks like they've started a server with some basic work done and they're using people to test things and report bugs before they've even put in any testing themselves. I know Vengeance is failing mostly due to their low population, but a part of the reason that the population has fallen off is because they came out and said that raids aren't scripted fully, and they need time to complete them.

I know that Nostalrius may have "doable" Ony and MC, but those are the easy ones to script. Are we going to continue to be test dummies for the rest of their content? Will they be able to script the AQ event and raid in a timely manner, because they hadn't done any work in MC and Ony, so I am assuming (which I know is wrong and I will receive flak over) that they haven't done any real scripting on BWL or AQ, or Nax.

If a GM or a developer wants to tell me I'm wrong I would love that. If they can provide proof of the work they have done over the last 5 years, or of the current state of their level 60 content I would love that too.

I'm not trying to tear this project down, I'm trying to get them to show us that it's worth waiting for and playing on once it releases. I know there are die-hard fans that will play on this server regardless, but there are probably many more of us that are just waiting for an exceptional vanilla server to come out. I want everyone to be as well informed as possible so that we can all make the right decision.

[Anzu]

You raise valid points. We are closing in on a state where it's good to be objective and honest about worries. Countless Vanilla servers have failed in the past with these types of issues and it would be nice with some information.

[Nain]

Who cares about what they did 4 - 5 years ago. What's now is good like you say, they're developing it well. Where do you get the energy to write a post as long as this

[Cornholi]

So far I've only come up with 3 potential answers:

1. Developing and perfecting a private server is harder or more time consuming than we think.
2. The devs are not as good as we thought.
3. They haven't been working on it since 2010 or with 16 developers.

It could be one or a combination of the three. Your best bet would be to ask someone who played back then and who is objective about their experience playing here, so you could get a better picture of were they where, quality-wise, back then and where they stand now.

[Lemonfreezer]

The only answer is "We'll just have to wait and see for ourselves". Even if Viper comes here and tells you everything you want to hear, it's still just talk.

[rewind]

Your answer lies in the last posted video.
The "16 developers" means that 16 differents people have been involved in different staffs regarding the management of the server for 4 years.
The server before shutdown was already one of the best regarding scripts but the problem was that fixes had been applied for years by different teams, and any new minor fix was interfering with old ones causing fix regression.
So, they went for a new core with the automated testing device in order to restart from a clean core, but with the older script ready to get tested/ applied if correct.

[Azalus]

Who cares about what they did 4 - 5 years ago. What's now is good like you say, they're developing it well. Where do you get the energy to write a post as long as this

I'm worried that we'll get invested and then we won't ever get an AQ or anything there after.

Sound familiar?

Also, I wrote that first post at work. So plenty of time and energy to kill there.

[Azalus]

Your answer lies in the last posted video.
The "16 developers" means that 16 differents people have been involved in different staffs regarding the management of the server for 4 years.
The server before shutdown was already one of the best regarding scripts but the problem was that fixes had been applied for years by different teams, and any new minor fix was interfering with old ones causing fix regression.
So, they went for a new core with the automated testing device in order to restart from a clean core, but with the older script ready to get tested/ applied if correct.

This sounds awesome, but does this help with them needing to script every raid still?

[Kill]

First, I am not one of the "die-hard fans that will play on this server regardless". Quality is important and if Nost can't deliver, it disappoints and I won't play here. The Devs would have lost all their credibility. None the less I don't think this will happen, but when it does, I won't defend shit. Please excuse some rhetorical questions and exaggerations, they are only for the sake of argument.

The hack test showed that the server really didn't have any protection in place. I personally talked to someone that has been in the private server for years, and every hack that has worked on projects in the past was working here.

That is plainly not true. There are/were some more holes then expected, I agree, but it's not like they didn't fixed known issues. Else why couldn't you dupe stuff? Why couldn't you air-swim without detect? Why is fall dmg calculated server side(!)? Please refer to any kind of proof, if you make statements like this, other than you know someone that knows someone who knows private servers This guy doesn't seem to be very worried and actually has some credibility.

So after all of the tests that I have taken part in, as well as read about, am I still the only person wondering what the "more than 16 developers" actually scripted "since 2010"?

[...]

I know that after each of these sessions, and even in-between the different sections for each session, the developers were able to fix almost, if not all of the problems.

But. That still begs the question of what they've been doing over the last 5 years with over 16 developers? They had an instant level 60 server, were the raids and dungeons just as bad for that? Did they start over and re-script a whole new core?

[...]

I don't think they had 16 devs for 5 years, they only say they have 16 now. Now please take into consideration that they are doing this work voluntarily in there spare time. And the most magnificent point is: Coding and software development takes ages. From your statements I feel free to guess that you never coded in your life. Hence you can't grasp what time it consumes. Lets compare Nost to CC and Kronos. Why do you think, they weren't able to catch their deadlines, fulfill their promises and doesn't develop very fast? Because they want to disappoint the community and kill the hype? I don't think so. They had to, because it is actually damn hard work to do this stuff and it very hard to estimate the time development takes. There is an own profession in managing software projects including milestones, evaluation cycles (regarind QoS/QoE), resource allocation, testing, etc. where work force / time is scheduled based on previous experiences and estimation. Furthermore there are a lot of different models, how to develop code.

All this shit is needed, so that you don't suddenly walk into a great problem which requires an unforeseen amount of effort. You make small but secure steps until you reached your goal. I don't say that Nost has done all of this and I might argue that it would not be necessary to apply all this. I only want to highlight how hard it is, even for professionals, to estimate time in a (software) project.

So, why is Nost at a point where it might be released soon? Because they have a bit more devs and are taking this very serious and show an professional approach (e.g. testing suite, resource allocation). That is the basic reason. I mean you could actually say that they outraced all their opponents (CC, Kronos) and also your (and my) experience at the test was, that they work fast. This is of cause only a true argument if they deliver a quality experience.

If you have little experience, you might find this post by the Kronos dev interesting, where he discusses an implementation issue devs encounter plenty of (in understandable language). However enlightening you may find this though, please ask yourself what you like more: devs solving problems or devs bragging about problems they already solved in forum or news

[rewind]

All the raids were scripted although aq40 and naxx were not tested ( but this is not important since there is still plenty of time to do it).
I guess they need players to report lacking scripts but scripts are ready.
You know as a dev it's hard to test 100% of the content and things that are obvious for you like hunter's multishot is hard to test for them because of the small number they are.