PSA: Addons can get you banned.

[Bit]

The only example I know of is actually the Neutral AH sniping addons. And that is really only a problem because players want to use it for something that isn't realistically the intent for it. If the intent was that players should be able to transfer stuff between their alliance and horde chars, they would simply have allowed mail. (And any text would ofc just get changed to "kek duk'zug" etc.) The only reason that this is seen as an issue is that addons are better at reacting and buying the stuff that shouldn't be there so cheap in the first place.

The people making those sniping complaint threads are so self-righteous talking of transferring items through the neutral AH as if it were some sort of fundamental right of theirs being violated by the "evil" snipers when in reality the snipers are the ones playing the game as intended and they are not.

In fact Daemon's quote "Blizzard considered that it was not legitimate to use it" could just as well be applied to the transferring. Like you say, if they'd considered it legitimate they would've just allowed mailing.

[Jeniwyn]

Man I was still bubbling mad yesterday. Perhaps I can try to give my point of view in a bit calmer and less confrontational manner.

Let me clarify that the big issue, as I see it, is that the current rules really do classify 90%+ of all addons as bots. Just from pure wording. This isn't surprising given that they just applied the anti-3rd party (e.g outside .exe) rules to addons/scripts/macros. The rule made specifically to hit everything so that there wouldn't be any grey area. Any outside program fiddling with WoW and you done did it.

I don't like the fact that I, and every other person in my guild and on my friendslist now breaks a permaban provision of the ToU on every login. I don't like that there is a provision that is sweeping yet very selectively enforced to the point where breaking it is straight up recommended.

That such rules are bad should be obvious. It goes against the whole idea of having a ToU with detailed rules and punishments. And, before someone brings it up, yes there is a rule that says that the GMs can ban you for any or no reason. That rule is there as a final resort to rarely if ever be used. To handle unforseen situations. I have no issue with such a rule. The difference here is that the anti-botting rule is supposedly a rule describing unwanted activity and before they decided that the API is subject to the rule the same as outside programs it did its job splendidly. I would actually assume this was decided without thinking it through too much. I give them enough credit to think that they would have chosen another route otherwise. For example a new section in the ToU or even my strongly prefered alternative to simply accept the API.

I know that there are or at least were members of the GM team that took pride in applying the ToU uniformly and predictably. Break the rules and you get the punishment prescribed. This is no longer possible.

[Sakatoro]

So every players which use the addon lazypig should get a ban?! gg

[GothicJawa]

I think we need to look at the word automation, every point made here is valid when you change the perception of the word. I consider automation to be more than one action that functions by itself without continuous input from a user. This means anything that requires one action of input can have any number of stages and not be considered automation, as soon as you include a repeat action within its scope it becomes automation. So something that continuously scans for a condition and executes a method when the condition is met is considered automation, this is not as disambiguous as people seem to think.

LazyPig addon is very interesting, because it is automation, and it is not. I think what we must look at there is how it effects other players and your own progress through the game, there is a certain feature within the addon that will give you an advantage over other players, that would be Auto Dismount, but even that is a minor thing. Although that being said, the whole pretense of LazyPig could not be considered automation within the scope of a game becasue it doesnt actualy affect other palyers or the progress of your character, its internal and does not affect the game world.

Now botting is automation and more and it is very clear, if not obvious that botting is automation with ton more features piled on top, I have a friend that has acutally made a botting program for wow that actually access the threads that wow runs on to be able to use specific key board shorcuts across multiple instances, he even programmed formations and battle AI! that is a far shot from LazyPig.

So dont get your panties in a twist, your NOT gonna be banned or penalized from using LazyPig, unless its for the Auto Dismount feature.

[Jeniwyn]

I think we need to look at the word automation, every point made here is valid when you change the perception of the word. I consider automation to be more than one action that functions by itself without continuous input from a user. This means anything that requires one action of input can have any number of stages and not be considered automation, as soon as you include a repeat action within its scope it becomes automation. So something that continuously scans for a condition and executes a method when the condition is met is considered automation, this is not as disambiguous as people seem to think.

This basically describes any OnUpdate function with an 'if' statement in it.

LazyPig addon is very interesting, because it is automation, and it is not. I think what we must look at there is how it effects other players and your own progress through the game, there is a certain feature within the addon that will give you an advantage over other players, that would be Auto Dismount, but even that is a minor thing. Although that being said, the whole pretense of LazyPig could not be considered automation within the scope of a game becasue it doesnt actualy affect other palyers or the progress of your character, its internal and does not affect the game world.

Once again, the rule is automating any feature or component of the game. There is no list, just an all inclusive any.

Now botting is automation and more and it is very clear, if not obvious that botting is automation with ton more features piled on top, I have a friend that has acutally made a botting program for wow that actually access the threads that wow runs on to be able to use specific key board shorcuts across multiple instances, he even programmed formations and battle AI! that is a far shot from LazyPig.

I would have assumed that this was the view of the Nostalrius GM Team up until a few days ago. Now it is enough to download the wrong version of Auctioneer. And possibly other addons that we simply don't know yet that the GMs might choose to enforce.

So dont get your panties in a twist, your NOT gonna be banned or penalized from using LazyPig, unless its for the Auto Dismount feature.

We agree that it is very, very unlikely that someone will get banned for LazyPig. So unlikely that I'm willing to use it without worry. It clearly is against the current rules though, with a supposed punishment of a permanent ban. And that is the problem. The rule is so strict that noone reasonably expects enforcement. What then happens when they wish to enforce it in some new situation? When almost everyone, either knowingly or in careless ignorance of the ToU, breaks a rule on a daily basis any enforcement of that rule becomes arbitrary and unpredictable except for when it is applied in a situation that has previously been given as an example by the GMs of a situation where it will be enforced.

And we obviously shouldn't expect warnings. The only way you get clued in that the rule is enforced against an addon that you downloaded is if someone else gets banned before you are.

It doesn't have to be like this. They can make much better rules if they want to.

[Kaiji]

If you were engaging in automated AH sniping - using whatever method - I don't think it's realistic or reasonable to expect any kind of leniency or warning.

You took a huge risk. It didn't pay off. Learn a lesson. Move on.

Acting like you were wronged in some way just comes off as extremely trashy.

[Bit]

If you were engaging in automated AH sniping - using whatever method - I don't think it's realistic or reasonable to expect any kind of leniency or warning.

You took a huge risk. It didn't pay off. Learn a lesson. Move on.

Acting like you were wronged in some way just comes off as extremely trashy.

It's as realistic and reasonable as if he had been killing boars. Both is playing the game as intended. You sound like you're salty because you got sniped. Maybe it's ethically questionable but so are many things that are part of the game, like ganking grays.

[Kaiji]

It's as realistic and reasonable as if he had been killing boars. Both is playing the game as intended.

It's nothing like it. He had an addon doing it for him automatically. How is that the same as doing it manually? Clue time: It isn't.

If he had an addon scanning the auction house and finding good auctions to snipe so he didn't have to, that isn't playing the game as intended. You're meant to do it yourself, not have an addon do it for you.

You sound like you're salty because you got sniped.

I couldn't give the vaguest shit about the AH personally. I said quite clearly what bothered me in my last post.

[Bit]

It's nothing like it. He had an addon doing it for him automatically. How is that the same as doing it manually? Clue time: It isn't.

It's the same with regard to legitimacy as far as blizzard is/was concerned.
And that's a strawman anyway. I never said it's the same, I said they're both intended ways to play the game, killing boars and using the Lua API.

If he had an addon scanning the auction house and finding good auctions to snipe so he didn't have to, that isn't playing the game as intended. You're meant to do it yourself, not have an addon do it for you.

They put it in the Lua API so it's intended for addons to be able to use it. We're not talking about some obscure loophole in the API. There are literally functions named "GetAuctionItemInfo" and "QueryAuctionItems". You think that's an accident? That stuff is even still available on retail and used by every notable retail auction house addon.

[Kaiji]

That stuff is even still available on retail and used by every notable retail auction house addon.

I didn't know that. I haven't played retail for years.

Are there addons in retail that let you scan and snipe auctions automatically?