Unorthodox specs accepted?

[bdan]

While I'm really sorry for what happened to you, I still don't see how that makes my point invalid or how it's even relevant to this thread...

If it was valid he wouldn't have posted it. Get ready cause hes about to refute something that no one said.

[Theloras]

While I'm really sorry for what happened to you, I still don't see how that makes my point invalid or how it's even relevant to this thread...

If it was valid he wouldn't have posted it. Get ready cause hes about to refute something that no one said.

Bad Acid said that he doubted that elitist min/max guilds wouldn't $hit all over hybrids.

I told him that isn't the case here as can be seen on the Nost forums - even more so on Peenix.

[cmill78]

Almost every elitist hardcore vanilla raider in this thread will defend themselves by saying "play the spec you want" and believe that absolves them of being an elitist jerk. Yet the comment that almost always follows; "you just won't be allowed to be in most raiding guilds" is what continues this thread. We all know that hybrid specs are not normal or accepted. However, to use words like "correct spec" or "appropriate spec" dumb the game down. Perhaps that is what a hardcore raider needs; things dumbed down.

This topic has always been a caustic one. Do you really believe Blizzard destroyed talent trees in Cata because THEY thought it was best? No. It was the elitist hardcore raiders who were constantly spamming the forums with their drivel about "correct specs" and "play your spec right" as if a game with 100 avenues for enjoyment only has one correct lane. Simple minds.

If failed raids and constant wiping is what your guild does, look in the mirror before saying "That damned Shadow Priest shouldn't be in this raid". Raids I was part of or leader of never had those issues and we always had hybrid specs. It's what made us so versatile and successful. Your success might come differently, but that doesn't make it the only (or right) way.

[squishums]

At the very least, people who want to play hybrids should understand/enjoy what that means. Some of them are straight out of retail, and they just dont understand. If you are a support class, you need to be willing to support.

If you dont, you are litterally ignoring 50% of your spellbook. You dont need to respec, or even change gear sets, you just have to have the right attitude. If you are a ret paladin, your blessings and cleanses better be ON POINT. If you are a shadowpriest, you better be willing to heal lowbie instances while you level. If the wsg flag carrier is dying from dots next to you, you better heal him.

Retail damaged this attitude, because when they removed talent trees, they also made alot of traditionally baseline spells suddenly be spec-specific

An interesting bit of game design is windfury and seal of command. A paladin can spam cleanse or refresh his blessings while doing literally as much dps as he is capable of. Hopefully almost everybody knows this, but if you turn off auto-self-cast, you can use friendly spells on anybody in the raid without untargeting the boss (addons and mouseovermacros can do the same thing Im sure, but they arent even neccesary). If the friendly spells are instant, your dps on the boss does not suffer at all. This is the clearest example of "use the other half of your spellbook". A paladin who is focused purely on doing damage is not even pressing any buttons. He could do exactly the same amount of damage AND support the group/raid/battleground.

Just dont be the "hurrr durrr I am dps if I grit my teeth maybe my autoattacks will crit" kind of person. If your heart is set on pure dps, then just roll one of the pure dps classes. Its better for you, and better for everybody else.

[bdan]

Almost every elitist hardcore vanilla raider in this thread will defend themselves by saying "play the spec you want" and believe that absolves them of being an elitist jerk. Yet the comment that almost always follows; "you just won't be allowed to be in most raiding guilds" is what continues this thread. We all know that hybrid specs are not normal or accepted. However, to use words like "correct spec" or "appropriate spec" dumb the game down. Perhaps that is what a hardcore raider needs; things dumbed down.

This topic has always been a caustic one. Do you really believe Blizzard destroyed talent trees in Cata because THEY thought it was best? No. It was the elitist hardcore raiders who were constantly spamming the forums with their drivel about "correct specs" and "play your spec right" as if a game with 100 avenues for enjoyment only has one correct lane. Simple minds.

If failed raids and constant wiping is what your guild does, look in the mirror before saying "That damned Shadow Priest shouldn't be in this raid". Raids I was part of or leader of never had those issues and we always had hybrid specs. It's what made us so versatile and successful. Your success might come differently, but that doesn't make it the only (or right) way.

Elitists or whatever you want to call them cant force you to change specs. However, you can not force them to invite you. You have fun playing whatever spec you want. They have fun running a best dps possible raid. You don't want to play a certain way and they don't want to play with you. Just avoid them. Why does it bother you that they don't want you if you don't want them?

You are mad at them for using their own terms like "correct specs" and "play your spec right". But then you turn right around and tell them that they are dumbing it down because they are simple minds. You are no better than them.

Progressing in a raid and having a raid on farm are two different things. If you have had a raid on farm for a month, I don't think many will mind bringing hybrids along. Usually though the pures will get the gear first since they do more damage and that is needed for progression. When you are progressing, you better be prepared to wipe all night. its a common thing that happens when a raid is first released. When you continuously get a boss down to ~5% but just don't seem to have enough dps or whatever to finish it, why would you bring someone who does less dps? If I am progressing, and I have the option of 5 rogues/mages or 5 spriests/oomkins, im damn well gonna bring the rogues/mages to give myself the best shot.

It is clear that you don't like that mentality and that is perfectly fine. Find or create a guild that suits you. No one hates you. no one can force you to do anything. They just might not want to play with you.

edit:

you say "as if a game with 100 avenues for enjoyment only has one correct lane". You can be any spec you want in pvp. you can be any spec you want out in the world farming/killing mobs/ganking/exploring/whatever. But when it comes to raiding, you need 39 other people to help you. You cant make 39 other people raid with you if they don't want to for whatever reason. Just like yourself, they are playing the game for enjoyment and they enjoy playing in a raid with the highest dps possible to make things smoother. That is not as important to you but it is to them and you gotta respect that.

[Bad Acid]

Almost every elitist hardcore vanilla raider in this thread will defend themselves by saying "play the spec you want" and believe that absolves them of being an elitist jerk. Yet the comment that almost always follows; "you just won't be allowed to be in most raiding guilds" is what continues this thread. We all know that hybrid specs are not normal or accepted. However, to use words like "correct spec" or "appropriate spec" dumb the game down. Perhaps that is what a hardcore raider needs; things dumbed down.

This topic has always been a caustic one. Do you really believe Blizzard destroyed talent trees in Cata because THEY thought it was best? No. It was the elitist hardcore raiders who were constantly spamming the forums with their drivel about "correct specs" and "play your spec right" as if a game with 100 avenues for enjoyment only has one correct lane. Simple minds.

If failed raids and constant wiping is what your guild does, look in the mirror before saying "That damned Shadow Priest shouldn't be in this raid". Raids I was part of or leader of never had those issues and we always had hybrid specs. It's what made us so versatile and successful. Your success might come differently, but that doesn't make it the only (or right) way.

Why is a person considered a jerk for running his guild/raids the way he thinks is best? You can have your opinion but so can everyone else, and if most people consider hybrid builds to be less useful than others, what is wrong with that? This is not a 250 population server, there are, what, around 10k people playing? I'm sure you can find enough like minded individuals to start your own raids/guild and play the game the way you want to play it, with 25 enh shamans if you want, nobody cares. Why do you care if guilds don't want hybrid built players in their raids? What exactly is wrong with that?

The way I see it, it's like you want to enter an elite restaurant with casual clothes, and you're rejected. Then you go around saying those people are jerks for having rules you don't agree with, even though there are plenty other places that would accept you. Honestly, in that situation, you are the jerk.

[Magnifican]

At the very least, people who want to play hybrids should understand/enjoy what that means. Some of them are straight out of retail, and they just dont understand. If you are a support class, you need to be willing to support.

If you dont, you are litterally ignoring 50% of your spellbook. You dont need to respec, or even change gear sets, you just have to have the right attitude. If you are a ret paladin, your blessings and cleanses better be ON POINT. If you are a shadowpriest, you better be willing to heal lowbie instances while you level. If the wsg flag carrier is dying from dots next to you, you better heal him.

Retail damaged this attitude, because when they removed talent trees, they also made alot of traditionally baseline spells suddenly be spec-specific

An interesting bit of game design is windfury and seal of command. A paladin can spam cleanse or refresh his blessings while doing literally as much dps as he is capable of. Hopefully almost everybody knows this, but if you turn off auto-self-cast, you can use friendly spells on anybody in the raid without untargeting the boss (addons and mouseovermacros can do the same thing Im sure, but they arent even neccesary). If the friendly spells are instant, your dps on the boss does not suffer at all. This is the clearest example of "use the other half of your spellbook". A paladin who is focused purely on doing damage is not even pressing any buttons. He could do exactly the same amount of damage AND support the group/raid/battleground.

Just dont be the "hurrr durrr I am dps if I grit my teeth maybe my autoattacks will crit" kind of person. If your heart is set on pure dps, then just roll one of the pure dps classes. Its better for you, and better for everybody else.

This is exactly my point! Thanks for this. Even though your dps wont be in the top of the charts, you still contribute to ways the dps meter wont show. You do dps, you are specs for dps, yet while your judgement is on the 8 sec CD you can still throw out blessings and cleanse etc in between, making you very helpful to the raid as a whole since you bring utility, blessings and a little of everything, having a few of those "odd" specs in a raid really doesnt hurt the 40-man progression that much.

People shouldnt be stuck in the mindset that was post-vanilla, where dps did dps, healers heal and tanks tank, holy trinity end of story gg. Blizzard did not have this design idea for hybrids in vanilla so you cant judge them solely on their dps or heal (I wont discuss tanking here because no taunt was ridiculous and we got it in TBC). Also 40 man raids were less concentrated into doing one specific role like the 10-mans for example. In 40 man you can easily have up to 10 people running around dotting, buffing, offhealing and whatnot and still prevail. But I realise that people im talking to are hopelessly stuck in the wrath-sorta mindset, even tbc wasnt that bad cause you needed people to bring CC and utilize the classes differently beyond simply dps spam.

Here on Nostalrius, with the bugs affecting the Paladin class and Retribution as a spec, it's difficult currently to do decent DPS. With 8 debuff slots, Consecration simply won't tick at all in a 40man raid which means that a Ret Paladin is losing out on at least 100-150 DPS. Hopefully, the Devs can fix this in the short term as well as when once 16 debuff slots open up this situation will have changed.

aw, that sucks! What other class bugs are affecting paladins besides Consecration?
Classbugs and fixing them should be the top priority imo. Sadly most pvt server seem to have some bugs regarding paladin, not sure why. Hopefully this gets fixed asap! Is there a bugreport one can follow? I cant seem to find it.

"Thankfully alot of people dont agree with you!" Apparently they do.

I didnt say "most" people, I said alot of people, and alot of people agree with you, but this thread shows that alot of people also dont. That makes me happy to see.

Still no answer regarding the shadowpriest and the 8slot debuff and shadow weaving, I recon people simply dont know and just stick to the "GTFO until 16 slot" then. Shame.. Lets ask this differently then: For those guilds that WOULD allow a spriest to join, would they be allowed to spec shadow weaving or would that hurt the precious 8 slot to much?.... God I wish we just had 16-slot like all the other pvt servers instead, funny how TBC ramped it up to 40 debuff slots while making raids only 25-man

[bdan]

10 people running around dotting, buffing, offhealing and whatnot and still prevail.

They wont be dotting cause there are 8 debuff limits. a dot Is a waste. time spent offhealing as a hybrid is even less dps than you will be doing. Your healers should be able to handle the healing.

I didnt say "most" people, I said alot of people, and alot of people agree with you, but this thread shows that alot of people also dont. That makes me happy to see.

Fair point. But that agrees with my point even more. There are a lot of people that think like me and there are a lot of people that think like you. You can find your own raids and live out your hybrid dreams. Dont hate on people who don't want hybrids in their raids. You have the option to join a "hybrid friendly" raid. I hope you do and I hope you succeed in downing every boss that youd like.

Still no answer regarding the shadowpriest and the 8slot debuff and shadow weaving, I recon people simply dont know and just stick to the "GTFO until 16 slot" then. Shame.. Lets ask this differently then: For those guilds that WOULD allow a spriest to join, would they be allowed to spec shadow weaving or would that hurt the precious 8 slot to much?.... God I wish we just had 16-slot like all the other pvt servers instead, funny how TBC ramped it up to 40 debuff slots while making raids only 25-man

As far as I know you would not. I don't remember the exact debuffs but im pretty sure its curse of recklessness for the reduced armor, faerie fire for reduced armor, sunder for reduced armor and threat, demo shout for reduced damage. Those im 99% sure of. Also taunt and probably curse of ele.

[joshbpepper]

Still no answer regarding the shadowpriest and the 8slot debuff and shadow weaving

I did see a shadow priest raiding on the PvP server but that was after they triple checked that MC never changed and one shotted everything. She was also a girl though so. You just gotta find a cool guild leader.

So its fair to say that there are guilds that will accept you. You might not get into the guild that clears MC/ONY 2 weeks after server release but why would you want to?



Heres the thing though, any competent raid leader would take any tryhard offspec player over a garbage mainspec, and it's typically the shitter mainspecs you will find trashing Enhs/Eles/Rets/Ferals/Boomkings etc --warcrimzGG

[Mastodon2090]

Play whatever you want to play. If ppl want to go full retard and act like it matters then fuck um. You don't need 40 specific classes/specs to clear raids. You just need 40 capable ppl.