Unorthodox specs accepted?

[joshbpepper]

This thread is awesome, and it is nice to see the tables turn on the number worshipers.

I remember back at BC launch there was a lot of discussion about going to 25 man raids and not everyone was keen to drop the controlled chaos that was 40 man. When WotLK was about to launch, there were a bunch of players asking for 40 man to be included. In one forum post, I remember someone arguing that all you really needed was 25 players to do 40 man content, and if Blizz scaled it up to require the full 40, it would be 40 Naxx all over again.

The point is Vanilla was designed to have these unorthodox builds. Like a lot of you, I played retail vanilla. Back then, people were stupid. Most players were playing a MMO for the first time, for some it was their first PC game. These "elitist" ideals were necessary to separate the good from the bad, at least partially anyhow. Next was running content with them, understanding their skill/knowledge and helping them step into the world of theorycrafting.

After 10 years, numerous private servers and the modernization of L2P, Vanilla WoW has been dissected in ways the 2 year period of Retail Vanilla, or any X-pac, could ever allow. Regardless of the core/balance differences, it has now been widely accepted that Unorthodox builds are welcome even in top tier raiding guilds, if only in small numbers, and of course only after certain patches.

This is nothing new, most of this has already been stated in this thread.

The point is, unless a guild is involved in the progression race, there is no reason to not allowed a reasonable number of the unorthodox specs. Yes, people have the free choice to run the raid as they please. But putting unnecessarily limitations just makes you look like an ass. Or oblivious. Unless you are running a raid during prime server time, you might be at the mercy of picking up whomever just for bodies. Especially with the 2500 population cap. You can run a tight ship all you want, hoping to make the run as smooth as possible, but being considered closed-minded and a tryhard is on you.

There is nothing wrong with trying to emulate top tier guilds, min-maxing and trying to be as efficient as possible. But compared to 10 years ago, the social stigma is against the "elite" minded now. More people know how to play, and a lot have been apart of the "elite" and have the experience to be given credibility.

Take a chance on your unorthodox-yet-skilled players. You might be surpsied.

Exactly! Very well put. Anyone that is arguing against off specs is basically saying they aren't good enough even 12 years later.

[GlassGhost]

just make a guild which will allow some unorthodox specs and play
i understand that you cant clear all content with only those specs, so let it be something like
1 enh/sp/oomkin in 5ppl group
2 in 10ppl raid
5 in 20ppl raid and 10 or even 15 in 40ppl raid

[Bad Acid]

Exactly! Very well put. Anyone that is arguing against off specs is basically saying they aren't good enough even 12 years later.

Nope, it is basically saying we don't trust that you are good enough 12 years later

[Theloras]

Let the games begin!

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/Fight ... ssLimit=Pa
http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/Fight ... 36&Fight=8

http://imageshack.com/a/img908/4136/HEbfIP.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img907/2569/hqsJtm.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img907/2898/ExTYzj.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img903/1654/tM5eAz.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img903/7333/4izjhr.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img911/3492/USdoZU.jpg

With my uber pew pew 11 / 23 / 17 spec:

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#sE0zZVhxfxZxcx0bb

[Pirwzy]

If you join a friendly guild and everyone enjoys you being around, I'm sure they'll let you get away with a sub-optimal build to keep you around.

Look to make friends instead of colleagues.

[Xef]

I'll just add that having mostly played on a different vanilla server these past months, most of the top guilds there are constantly recruiting more people because they're clearing content with 35 or even 30 players.

Would the top guild there that asks you to be fully buffed so they can clear MC in about 40 minutes let ret paladins in? I doubt it. But the rest of them, I can't see why not. Surely it's better to have 40 people in the raid including few ret paladins and/or feral druids than clearing content with 32 players. Especially considering the first raids, MC / Ony / BWL, are really not difficult at all.

[Masq]

just about all specs are viable excluding maybe elemental and moonkin for any content in classic wow.

[Magnifican]

I'll just add that having mostly played on a different vanilla server these past months, most of the top guilds there are constantly recruiting more people because they're clearing content with 35 or even 30 players.

Would the top guild there that asks you to be fully buffed so they can clear MC in about 40 minutes let ret paladins in? I doubt it. But the rest of them, I can't see why not. Surely it's better to have 40 people in the raid including few ret paladins and/or feral druids than clearing content with 32 players. Especially considering the first raids, MC / Ony / BWL, are really not difficult at all.

The really sad point here though is that lots of these guilds will actually go on with 30-35 people rather than take these odd specs because of loot. They dont want to risk loosing gear to an "oddy" that they dont consider is even helping the raid that much because they "ubersuck so hardz!". The minmax mentality is a sickness (outside of the most "hardcore" guilds that aim to speed through as fast as possible) on the community and its especially hurtful in vanilla where classbalance was at its absolute worse ever. This mentality had spread over to the rest and even the more casual raiding guilds hesitate to allow one of the odd specs, the minmax paired with the holy trinity of roles has become such a universal truth that its really hard to get past that mindset, even for 10 year old content we all know inside and out.

Im still searching for a guild that'd let me join in the raids to come, its too bad though that even with the difficult state of ret pallies are in vanilla, it hurts even more when the server has so many classbugs surrounding that class they are in even worse state than on retail vanilla. For example: Holy resist on mobs, sanctity aura bugged, seal of command bugged, consecration bugged. So many core class issues, and this is just mentioning the paladin.
Until these bugs are fixed im not gonna touch my pally, and since shadowpriest are not allowed until the 16 slot debuff im just stuck atm. I hate healing-only role and I know i'll be forced to it if I pick a class I actually enjoy rather than yet another mage/lock/rogue.

[Xef]

I'll just add that having mostly played on a different vanilla server these past months, most of the top guilds there are constantly recruiting more people because they're clearing content with 35 or even 30 players.

Would the top guild there that asks you to be fully buffed so they can clear MC in about 40 minutes let ret paladins in? I doubt it. But the rest of them, I can't see why not. Surely it's better to have 40 people in the raid including few ret paladins and/or feral druids than clearing content with 32 players. Especially considering the first raids, MC / Ony / BWL, are really not difficult at all.

The really sad point here though is that lots of these guilds will actually go on with 30-35 people rather than take these odd specs because of loot. They dont want to risk loosing gear to an "oddy" that they dont consider is even helping the raid that much because they "ubersuck so hardz!". The minmax mentality is a sickness (outside of the most "hardcore" guilds that aim to speed through as fast as possible) on the community and its especially hurtful in vanilla where classbalance was at its absolute worse ever. This mentality had spread over to the rest and even the more casual raiding guilds hesitate to allow one of the odd specs, the minmax paired with the holy trinity of roles has become such a universal truth that its really hard to get past that mindset, even for 10 year old content we all know inside and out.

Im still searching for a guild that'd let me join in the raids to come, its too bad though that even with the difficult state of ret pallies are in vanilla, it hurts even more when the server has so many classbugs surrounding that class they are in even worse state than on retail vanilla. For example: Holy resist on mobs, sanctity aura bugged, seal of command bugged, consecration bugged. So many core class issues, and this is just mentioning the paladin.
Until these bugs are fixed im not gonna touch my pally, and since shadowpriest are not allowed until the 16 slot debuff im just stuck atm. I hate healing-only role and I know i'll be forced to it if I pick a class I actually enjoy rather than yet another mage/lock/rogue.

Yea I guess you're right, but man that's just lame. The prejudice towards non-optimal specs and classes is just ludicrous. Same goes to people who demand you to be in full pre MC BiS, when the BiS when MC actually came out was far worse than it is in the wow we play (and yea I get the whole "put effort into your class" thing).

I played a shadowpriest in vanilla for the last 6 months of it, and I can't remember anybody letting shadowpriests anywhere. Now looking at realmplayers from Kronos, there's a shadowpriest at #20 on average dps in MC. Not too bad for a spec that, as far as I remember, was too shitty to take anywhere.

[Magnifican]

Regarding shadowpriests I've seen them in naxx being on 3rd spot in dps and one in AQ where a shadowpriest was at 5th spot, obviously there was a lock and mage above him in both cases but out of 40 people that's not bad at all (cant seem to find the pic now sorry, gotta take my word on this). It also depends a whole lot on the gear and player skill, more so than on spec (even though spec obviously matters somewhat, no denying that just shouldnt be a deciding factor on 10 year old content but what to do).