Yet again.

[Xethra]

@Wiseh

Just for the record, the raid was mostly Limited Edition led by Frapper with the addition of some Goon Squad led by myself.

@Jaedan

With all do respect to Pizzaparty (<3 pal), he's only a raider in Odyssey. Grassmonkey more than likely did all the decision making himself or consulted with his other Class Leaders (Exterminate / Redeyez / any other that was there at the time).

[Jaedan]

@Wiseh

Just for the record, the raid was mostly Limited Edition led by Frapper with the addition of some Goon Squad led by myself.

@Jaedan

With all do respect to Pizzaparty (<3 pal), he's only a raider in Odyssey. Grassmonkey more than likely did all the decision making himself or consulted with his other Class Leaders (Exterminate / Redeyez / any other that was there at the time).

Pizza only a raider ? THIS IS AN OUTRAGE. I demand a promotion for him at once !

[Tyri]

Me & Ace have always been the type of leaders ready for a conversation.

Except... you aren't, Duo.

You knew full well there was a conversation going on between all the guilds on the server (both Horde and Alliance), and you CHOSE to sneak around and circumvent that conversation with bullyboy tactics and deceit.

You dont make a whole lot of sense when your actions say one thing, and your forum posts say another. Now that the conversation has changed to one of integrity and honor, you claim you are ready to talk about it. Maybe the first move in this conversation on your part should have been a little more honest.

[Dotsmore]

this is insane. you cant fight/wait 2-3 hours for kazzak but you can spam 24hours 5 topics on forum about kazzak. next time be prepared. /cry

[Strobber]

Me & Ace have always been the type of leaders ready for a conversation.

Except... you aren't, Duo.

You knew full well there was a conversation going on between all the guilds on the server (both Horde and Alliance), and you CHOSE to sneak around and circumvent that conversation with bullyboy tactics and deceit.

You dont make a whole lot of sense when your actions say one thing, and your forum posts say another. Now that the conversation has changed to one of integrity and honor, you claim you are ready to talk about it. Maybe the first move in this conversation on your part should have been a little more honest.

Not sure what your point is we did know about the conversation and we did send someone in to listen to what people have to say. We just didn't agree, blame us.

[Mandosz]

hmm... where to begin.

- Traitors? World bosses are free-for-all, that's a given. Agreements and pacts are only between those that want to respect them. But you don't get to throw around accusations of being traitors when you actively sabotaged the only other serious hordeside attempt at taking down Kazzak.
By all means, you didn't have to help Goon Squad or anything. I don't regard you as traitors for what you did, but I'm going to remind you that if you put guild pride above faction pride, playing the traitor card afterwards is hypocritical.
Or perhaps you are fine with a horde kill only if it's a Deja Vu kill? In that case, third faction indeed.

We never once interfered with a Hordeside attempt at killing Kazzak and we have video evidence via VoD from multiple streams that shows us in a holding pattern away from Kazzak during the very few attempts made by the Limited Addition/Goon Squad raid. The griefing there was done by your buddies on the alliance side, the same ones who wanted you to roll for a kill because they couldn't stomach the thought of a prolonged event where they might actually have to put effort in for a kill. Don't believe me? Too bad, I made the call myself to hang back and let the alliance wipe the horde attempt, I don't need to justify or prove myself but I do have the evidence to back it up.

- Cooperation isn't a sign of weakness. Allies have at the very least twice as many raiding guilds as us, it would be stupid of them not to cooperate and have pacts and whatnot. This is where paradoxically having lower pop helps us for now, but what does it say about our future if teamwork is seen as shameful? Is the delirious vitriol I read around here just from a vocal minority? I sure hope so but at this point I don't know anymore. Bad Acid said it best on his post.

Co-Operation is all fine and dandy, we quite often co-operate with other guilds, We have done many things, not least of which is joining in with a RoC raid on alts and unsaved characters to assist in clearing MC during the christmas holidays when they needed a few extra bodies to get the clear done. We do co-operate and if anyone bothered to take enough time away from the whole "world versus Deja Vu" mentatility they would find that we are in fact quite nice people and willing to help when and where we can. But this doesnt meant that we NEED to co-operate or that we peticularly care to share in a world boss kill when we have more than enough people to keep the kill in house. Giving away freebies makes zero sense, and the benefit of being a large and successful guild is that we are able to provide world boss kills and the respective loot gained from it to our loyal players. It has absolutely nothing to do with seeing teamwork as shameful, in fact I believe you are trying to imply that our decision to lean on the strength of our numbers instead of working with the opposite faction to be shameful, kind of a silly thing to suggest really.

- Is it only the result that matters, not the execution?
Let's take for example the Azuregos kills. The first one boiled down to whoever tagged him first. The second one was that whole phasing line fiasco, where it can't be proved whether you truly knew you would end up denying him in an exploity way. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt on that; I want to give you that. And the staff is giving that to you too, regardless if they want or not, because they have to, as staff.

Again, kiting Azuregos to the phase line and despawning him was an unfortunate accident. I made the call personally to kite him to Orgrimmar, My intention was to bring him into Horde controlled territory where the Alliance would be forced to flag for PvP for entering our main city, at which point we could wipe them out at our leisure and use the time that they would be stuck corpse running/getting organized in Azshara again to kill Azuregos for ourselves. We were NOT aware of the phase line and I think its pretty plain to anybody with any level of intelligence that we were just as shocked and confused as everyone else, If we knew the phase line would despawn him in such a manner, why would we return to Azshara to continue fighting for him? It makes zero sense logically to do that if we knew what had actually happened.

The third one, now the third Azuregos kill was great. Hunters kiting and juggling aggro, opposite faction dragging thunderclapping giants to them to slow them down, groups forming to take down the giants.
That thinking on the spot, that creative use of the surroundings, that spontaneous teamwork, lots of pvp going around. That was fun and engaging. That's how world boss fights should be.
Can't help but think that this kind of event do suffer from being on a pve server, but it still doesn't mean we can't make them fun.

We have had plenty of fun at every world boss encounter, Including Kazzak. I am here to assist my guild and help lead them in raid combat situations, I look after my members and do my best to ensure their enjoyment as well as the enjoyment and morale of my guild as a whole. My job is not to ensure the satisfaction or fun of any other guild or their players, that falls on your own guild and the leadership therein. If they arent providing a fun experience then maybe you should start your witch hunt there.

Kazzak... Kazzak now is a different beast. We could argue the whole day whether his mechanics are made to be taken advantage of with lvl 1 alts. As we could argue the whole day whether those alts were on the same account or totally your 'brother' on his account that shares the same connection. Multiboxing is an issue for the GMs to weigh in if they think it's the case.

Legit strategy? Probably, for the most part. Cheap? Sadly yes. Unfun? You betcha.

You can choose to keep flattering yourself thinking people are just jealous, but you do a disservice to yourself if you refuse to see how a cheap strategy made the game unfun for everybody.

People will adapt, and when you'll fail to bring in those oh-so-prized results you seem to sacrifice everything for, the rhetoric of stronk guild who need no friends will be even more cringeworthy than already is, in hindsight.

As said by many before me, The presence of level 1's on the battlefield can be attributed to any person in any guild there, I can make a level 1 alliance character or a horde character and corpse run it to Kazzak, there is zero way to prove who was controlling those alts, I know some were our members but this form of countermeasure was quite common in vanilla, so much so that we went out of our way to ask a GM beforehand if it was considered against the rules of the server to do such a thing and we got the green light to do it, Again we have evidence of this conversation and it has been shared on multiple occasions. And just because the level ones are present it does NOT mean that they are being multiboxed, We had nearly 80 people present, you really think we cant afford to have 10 people swap onto a different character for a short span of time? Throwing around accusations with no concrete evidence is just childish, you may not agree with our tactics but you cant argue their validity as being "Blizzlike". I know many keyboard warriors on this server claim to have experience in vanilla and they "Killed KT" or "Were on four horsemen" when TBC finally hit, but I gaurantee you 95% or more of those claims are blatant lies because they know there is no proof, Knowing this I can assure you that most of these complaints about world boss tactics are coming from people who never actually experienced world bosses in vanilla on a populated realm with real competition from both sides.

Being "Cheap" on a world boss is par for the course, Put in the effort and time as a guild to be a contender or don't bother showing up. But coming here to complain about being incapable of contending with another guild because they refused to roll over and die so you could have a fair turn is idiotic at best.

[Jaedan]

Damn Wiseh.... take a \_