Unorthodox specs accepted?

[cmill78]

Actually doing whatever you want, regardless of its impact on others (in this case your raid group), is pretty much the textbook definition of selfishness - but you can keep on with the mental gymnastics if you want.

The second part of this post is where you continue with this false dichotomy of choosing between someone playing a shit spec ca someone who can't play their class. You don't have to choose, there are plenty of people that can both play their class and have the optimal spec. You have also failed to consider the possibility that the guy with the shit spec is also a shit player.

Finally, what does it matter if this is post-WOTLK or not? Does math not apply in vanilla WoW somehow?

If you understood the words I typed rather than just simply responding to them, you would find that I never said "every player is a good player regardless of spec". I said that a player not speced to your liking is not always a shit player. Raids my guild cleared in Vanilla (all except Naxx) had Arcane Mages, Balance Druids, Shadow Priests and Enhancement/Elemntal Shamans. And often times there were multiple.

Math applies quite a bit in all forms of WoW. Your point? Gear and stats and enchants and item level matter more than a players overall skill post WoTLK. Need proof? Spend 2 days hitting up the 'Raid Finder' tool in retail. Any group of players can clear any raid so long as their gear and stats are up to par. In Vanilla, yeah you needed gear but it wasn't make or break. Yeah, enchants were great, but weren't raid breaking. Other than resist gear, skill played a much bigger part than anything else.

You are correct that some players are just shit, or to correctly label them; casual. But any raid/guild leader worth his salt will run high level dungeons with their raiders (or potential raiders) to see how they run their spec before they go all holier-than-thou and force them to respec. And that last part is what creates the selfish nature of the game. Vet the potential raiders and help them or show them the door. Don't force them to respec and play the game the way YOU want them to in order to achieve a goal for YOUR guild and raiders. Yes, it is your time. Yes, it is valuable. But that fact doesn't give you the right to be a douche because someone doesn't play the game the way YOU want them to.

[cmill78]

Then you'll also know that out of two people with equal skill and gear level, the person with the better spec will perform better in raids.

Two players can not be equally skilled at separate specs. However, the premise of your comment is correct. Yet, the failure with the culture post WoTLK WoW has created is a lack of patience to vet the raiders properly before your go full progression. Invest in your raid group and you will get more out of them.

Also, if your raid is wiping on every boss multiple times because of one raider, your raid isn't as well put together as you thought.

[Orthodoxy]

If you understood the words I typed rather than just simply responding to them, you would find that I never said "every player is a good player regardless of spec". I said that a player not speced to your liking is not always a shit player. Raids my guild cleared in Vanilla (all except Naxx) had Arcane Mages, Balance Druids, Shadow Priests and Enhancement/Elemntal Shamans. And often times there were multiple.

Awesome!

Math applies quite a bit in all forms of WoW. Your point? Gear and stats and enchants and item level matter more than a players overall skill post WoTLK. Need proof? Spend 2 days hitting up the 'Raid Finder' tool in retail. Any group of players can clear any raid so long as their gear and stats are up to par. In Vanilla, yeah you needed gear but it wasn't make or break. Yeah, enchants were great, but weren't raid breaking. Other than resist gear, skill played a much bigger part than anything else.

Theorycrafting has determined the "correct spec" for each class. I don't know where you are getting all this about WoW post-Wrath, but I don't care anyway. Raid Finder is irrelevant to this discussion, as the content is intentionally faceroll and has no relation to vanilla difficulty levels. We aren't arguing about gear, or enchants, we are arguing about if people are wrong for rolling stupid specs even knowing full well they are bad, and whining on the forums/spreading false hope. "Skill" in vanilla for several classes involves getting out of fire and pressing 1-3 buttons over and over, but again you keep changing the subject. "Skill" cannot bridge the gap between an equally geared/skilled rogue and a ret paladin, period. Even if both perform perfectly the rogue is capable of dealing much more damage, because of imbalanced class design in the original game. End of story.

You are correct that some players are just shit, or to correctly label them; casual. But any raid/guild leader worth his salt will run high level dungeons with their raiders (or potential raiders) to see how they run their spec before they go all holier-than-thou and force them to respec. And that last part is what creates the selfish nature of the game. Vet the potential raiders and help them or show them the door. Don't force them to respec and play the game the way YOU want them to in order to achieve a goal for YOUR guild and raiders. Yes, it is your time. Yes, it is valuable. But that fact doesn't give you the right to be a douche because someone doesn't play the game the way YOU want them to.

You don't need to do dungeon runs with them, because even if they are competent at their sub-par spec you can just find a competent rogue/mage to fill their slot. If you want to help people stop confusing the issue and giving new players false hope that a progression guild will invite them with a terrible spec.

[squishums]

The worst thing about hybrids is that they compete for gear with the pure classes. Not their classes: other pure classes. Boomkins and spriests want cloth dps gear. Enh shamans and ret paladins want weapons and melee gear.

If you play a special pve spec for raiding, it is not fair to lose items to somebody who does not make that sacrifice. And, if nobody made that sacrifice, easy raids would become very hard. Fury warriors tanking without shields on, fire mages trying to dps MC, rogues specced specifically for ganking, etc.

The only solution is that everybody makes that sacrifice. Or, that hybrids are second-class citizens, and need to justify their raid spot, and pass on a lot of items that could actually benefit them.

[joshbpepper]

You guys are missing the question in the OP. Stop the 2004 bullshit. Theres countless guides of BiS gear, how to kill trash mobs, raid bosses, theres well documented things on skill rotation. To still be disillusioned with how much is on your side in todays game is hilarious.

Also to say that people raiding with different specs all of a sudden aren't trying as hard or being carried is equally hilarious. Do you think people who play those specs are unaware of the stigma against them? Don't you think just maybe theyre more skilled and enjoy the challenge and out to prove people wrong? That's dedication and the sign of a good player. Also to suggest off specs are stealing gear has no merit because people get burned out in vanilla raiding all the time. People quit left and right so at the end of the day youre rolling the dice regardless.

[Orthodoxy]

You guys are missing the question in the OP. Stop the 2004 bullshit. Theres countless guides of BiS gear, how to kill trash mobs, raid bosses, theres well documented things on skill rotation. To still be disillusioned with how much is on your side in todays game is hilarious.

Doesn't make trash specs any less trash, doesn't mean I should carry them through raids for literally no reason. You literally have no answer to this.

Also to say that people raiding with different specs all of a sudden aren't trying as hard or being carried is equally hilarious. Do you think people who play those specs are unaware of the stigma against them? Don't you think just maybe theyre more skilled and enjoy the challenge and out to prove people wrong? That's dedication and the sign of a good player. Also to suggest off specs are stealing gear has no merit because people get burned out in vanilla raiding all the time. People quit left and right so at the end of the day youre rolling the dice regardless.

They can try as hard as they want, grit their teeth, pound their keyboard - none of it will make them better than a competent rogue/mage. What are you, a ret paladin? Go home OP you're embarrassing yourself.

[joshbpepper]

Hey dude its a knock on your raiding ability if you cant handle 2 dudes with a diff spec.

[Theloras]

They can try as hard as they want, grit their teeth, pound their keyboard - none of it will make them better than a competent rogue/mage. What are you, a ret paladin? Go home OP you're embarrassing yourself.

Why are you so bloody angry bro? Iz only game

SRSLY, with your attitude, you would be much more welcome on Peenix than here...

[Shadowpve]

You guys are missing the question in the OP. Stop the 2004 bullshit. Theres countless guides of BiS gear, how to kill trash mobs, raid bosses, theres well documented things on skill rotation. To still be disillusioned with how much is on your side in todays game is hilarious.

Doesn't make trash specs any less trash, doesn't mean I should carry them through raids for literally no reason. You literally have no answer to this.

Also to say that people raiding with different specs all of a sudden aren't trying as hard or being carried is equally hilarious. Do you think people who play those specs are unaware of the stigma against them? Don't you think just maybe theyre more skilled and enjoy the challenge and out to prove people wrong? That's dedication and the sign of a good player. Also to suggest off specs are stealing gear has no merit because people get burned out in vanilla raiding all the time. People quit left and right so at the end of the day youre rolling the dice regardless.

They can try as hard as they want, grit their teeth, pound their keyboard - none of it will make them better than a competent rogue/mage. What are you, a ret paladin? Go home OP you're embarrassing yourself.

I get what you're saying, and to most of an extent you are correct. However, a few people playing hybrids as DPS is not going to hurt a raid, PERIOD. If you are a top 3 guild and pushing server firsts and for naxx etc I could understand your argument about wanting the best but if its just a normal random guild just progressing it causes no harm in people enjoying themselves. I will raid shadow on PvE server and I know the weight on my shoulders to hold my own but I can do it. Will I get out dps'd? Most likely, but I can do well enough to not be last on the meter or have someone carry me. I've been playing WoW since early vanilla, I've had multi gladiator titles 2600+ and I've raided extensively on almost every class.

I am not playing on Nostalrius for world firsts or to act like some douchebag. I'm playing for fun, and I want to play something in vanilla I didn't have the chance to, and I will succeed with it. Your argument holds up in an elitist way and your'e right but only to a certain extent of it being a top guild. If I was in the #1 guild and being a no lifer trying to world first shit I wouldn't be playing shadow pve, but that's not the case so your argument doesn't apply to everyone. If you have a problem with hybrid specs or people enjoying themselves I suggest you join one of those types of guilds I've mentioned.

[Coreborn]

I remember those days when i could raid as a hybrid and there where no threat meter and boss mods.
But even though the game start at patch 1.4 in itemization. The game will always be patch 1.12.1.
That means you can never recreate the moment you might have had back in 2005 on this server.