Bliz must *not* offer Vanilla - they must *license* Vanilla

[Guybrush]

How EverQuest handles it:

We have recently entered into a written agreement with Daybreak Game Company LLC that formally recognizes Project 1999 as a fan based, not-for-profit, classic EverQuest emulation project. The agreement establishes the guidelines that we as a project must follow, but it will allow to us continue to update the game without risk of legal repercussions. As a show of good faith to support the efforts of Daybreak Games, we have decided to reschedule our expansion release as to not conflict with the upcoming new progression server being released in the coming weeks.

https://www.everquest.com/news/project-1999-daybreak

[VeloxBanks]

What we need is a real practical demand we all agree on, like re-opening Nostalrius and reversing legal action. Then an effective "protest" or plan. Assuming the Nostalrius team even wants to continue. They could be opting out willingly. We don't want a blizzard vanilla server because it will cost money and inevitably suck when they can't help but ruin it with a bunch of extra nonsense.

Petitions WONT WORK (they never do, right?) because that leaves 100% of the decision to the company, and they wouldn't have done it to begin with if there was a chance of them reversing it. Also, they would look like idiots for making a significantly bad decision. So Blizzard must be FORCED to do it. And that is done with "effective protest" and organization. You get a bunch of people to agree to do something LEGAL that will cripple the company or whoever has the power to reverse the decision. And usually the threat alone is enough for them to agree. For instance, here are some real examples of "protest".

- Everyone orders an item or items from Blizzard (preferrably something cheap), then agree's to return it. The losses the company would get from that are unimaginable, and that's an example where the threat alone may cause them to meet our demands.
- Everyone calls their support line at the same time, then just mutes their phone and goes afk. Their support service would cease to function while that's happening. They would also fall behind. And its legal.
- Do something at the blizcon event like having hundreds of people stand in line, only to walk away when they actually get to the counter.

The KEY is to be SINCERE, HUMOROUS, and LEGAL. For instance, when you get to the counter, even though the last 5 people "didn't have tickets". You still say something like, "WOW WEIRD WHAT A CONICIDENCE, I DONT HAVE ONE EITHER?!?" then stick to the story while everyone quietly laughs, except for the target, because they can do NOTHING about it. Now that may not be a good example because it would piss off actual fans at Blizzcon when they couldn't enter. But the shockwave would be huge and Bliz would probably meet our demands from the threat alone, as long as its REAL, and people are 100% prepared to follow through. NEVER BLUFF. Just some advice if anyone cares enough to organize a real protest. The first step is to gather a group of people and have a think tank on what we want and how to protest. Its the power of community organization.

Sounds good. Finaly something I can join in on. However I'd like it if another person or two confirms this. Just to be safe.

[Forcerius]

What we need is a real practical demand we all agree on, like re-opening Nostalrius and reversing legal action. Then an effective "protest" or plan. Assuming the Nostalrius team even wants to continue. They could be opting out willingly. We don't want a blizzard vanilla server because it will cost money and inevitably suck when they can't help but ruin it with a bunch of extra nonsense.

Petitions WONT WORK (they never do, right?) because that leaves 100% of the decision to the company, and they wouldn't have done it to begin with if there was a chance of them reversing it. Also, they would look like idiots for making a significantly bad decision. So Blizzard must be FORCED to do it. And that is done with "effective protest" and organization. You get a bunch of people to agree to do something LEGAL that will cripple the company or whoever has the power to reverse the decision. And usually the threat alone is enough for them to agree. For instance, here are some real examples of "protest".

- Everyone orders an item or items from Blizzard (preferrably something cheap), then agree's to return it. The losses the company would get from that are unimaginable, and that's an example where the threat alone may cause them to meet our demands.
- Everyone calls their support line at the same time, then just mutes their phone and goes afk. Their support service would cease to function while that's happening. They would also fall behind. And its legal.
- Do something at the blizcon event like having hundreds of people stand in line, only to walk away when they actually get to the counter.

The KEY is to be SINCERE, HUMOROUS, and LEGAL. For instance, when you get to the counter, even though the last 5 people "didn't have tickets". You still say something like, "WOW WEIRD WHAT A CONICIDENCE, I DONT HAVE ONE EITHER?!?" then stick to the story while everyone quietly laughs, except for the target, because they can do NOTHING about it. Now that may not be a good example because it would piss off actual fans at Blizzcon when they couldn't enter. But the shockwave would be huge and Bliz would probably meet our demands from the threat alone, as long as its REAL, and people are 100% prepared to follow through. NEVER BLUFF. Just some advice if anyone cares enough to organize a real protest. The first step is to gather a group of people and have a think tank on what we want and how to protest. Its the power of community organization.

Sounds good. Finaly something I can join in on. However I'd like it if another person or two confirms this. Just to be safe.

That's why everything needs to be legal. Confirm what though? I havn't actually organized anything. I'm just sharing the wisdom of Alinsky. Because he made real peaceful changes with these methods.

Here's the steps
1. Confirm if the admins actually want to run the server again. They may have split up, etc.
2. Choose the demand
3. Gather information about the company or anything related
4. Brainstorm and decide on the best methods or method of "protest" with any medium like the forums or skype.
5. Set a time and date along with an agreement that everyone will follow through. It must be something practical and easy if possible. For instance, boycotting isn't practical because many people will claim to cancel legion but still buy it anyway, along with the rest of their products or customer base that doesn't care about Nostalrius. So we need something that we can reasonably expect a significant number people to do.

[VeloxBanks]

What we need is a real practical demand we all agree on, like re-opening Nostalrius and reversing legal action. Then an effective "protest" or plan. Assuming the Nostalrius team even wants to continue. They could be opting out willingly. We don't want a blizzard vanilla server because it will cost money and inevitably suck when they can't help but ruin it with a bunch of extra nonsense.

Petitions WONT WORK (they never do, right?) because that leaves 100% of the decision to the company, and they wouldn't have done it to begin with if there was a chance of them reversing it. Also, they would look like idiots for making a significantly bad decision. So Blizzard must be FORCED to do it. And that is done with "effective protest" and organization. You get a bunch of people to agree to do something LEGAL that will cripple the company or whoever has the power to reverse the decision. And usually the threat alone is enough for them to agree. For instance, here are some real examples of "protest".

- Everyone orders an item or items from Blizzard (preferrably something cheap), then agree's to return it. The losses the company would get from that are unimaginable, and that's an example where the threat alone may cause them to meet our demands.
- Everyone calls their support line at the same time, then just mutes their phone and goes afk. Their support service would cease to function while that's happening. They would also fall behind. And its legal.
- Do something at the blizcon event like having hundreds of people stand in line, only to walk away when they actually get to the counter.

The KEY is to be SINCERE, HUMOROUS, and LEGAL. For instance, when you get to the counter, even though the last 5 people "didn't have tickets". You still say something like, "WOW WEIRD WHAT A CONICIDENCE, I DONT HAVE ONE EITHER?!?" then stick to the story while everyone quietly laughs, except for the target, because they can do NOTHING about it. Now that may not be a good example because it would piss off actual fans at Blizzcon when they couldn't enter. But the shockwave would be huge and Bliz would probably meet our demands from the threat alone, as long as its REAL, and people are 100% prepared to follow through. NEVER BLUFF. Just some advice if anyone cares enough to organize a real protest. The first step is to gather a group of people and have a think tank on what we want and how to protest. Its the power of community organization.

Sounds good. Finaly something I can join in on. However I'd like it if another person or two confirms this. Just to be safe.

That's why everything needs to be legal. Confirm what though? I havn't actually organized anything. I'm just sharing the wisdom of Alinsky. Because he made real peaceful changes with these methods.

Here's the steps
1. Confirm if the admins actually want to run the server again. They may have split up, etc.
2. Choose the demand
3. Gather information about the company or anything related
4. Brainstorm and decide on the best methods or method of "protest" with any medium like the forums or skype.
5. Set a time and date along with an agreement that everyone will follow through. It must be something practical and easy if possible. For instance, boycotting isn't practical because many people will claim to cancel legion but still buy it anyway, along with the rest of their products or customer base that doesn't care about Nostalrius. So we need something that we can reasonably expect a significant number people to do.

Well I'm certainly down for helping any way I can. I realise we need quite the number of people for this to work. I don't wanna throw myself out there like I'm some big deal but I'd definitely like to help in any small (or big) way I can. I'm on the forum pretty much nonstop (even while at school) so I most likely won't miss any info if this idea builds up.

[Crysthal]

That's why I don't want retail vanilla servers.

IF they would open them (I highly doubt it) there would be so many problems..

Just a few things I'm 100% sure about:

- They would run it with new models because you can use the old ones for the real feeling at anytime
- They would open their glorious shop too (they make so much money of it)

The only real solution is to create seperate accounts for it because otherwise you can use all your mounts and stuff. But this is just unthinkable.
Imagine all those retail babies crying about the OP classes or imagine the flood of ret palas/ferals/we crying for beeing left behind. "Gief lfr for classic pls"
The potential for even more crying and things like "you gave them classic - I want CATACLYSM!!" is something very dangerous.

If tomorrow I could create a Battlenet account and log in, buy WoW Classic for 50$ combined with a monthly payment of 15$ and everything would be like it was back in the days, I'd 100% do it. But this is not the way it will be.

If anything like classic servers are being implented it will take years. It's a high risk and their shareholders are just interested in hard cash and not the eternal gratitude of a million fans.
A collab with the nost team is out of question, imagine the PR "Billion dollar Game-Publisher gets extra lessons by team of hobby devs" (no hate for Nost team, they are incredible but the media are sharks)

So for me there are only three scenarios for the near (~3 months) future

1. Blizzard changes their terms of use and thus nostalrius will be revived (very unlikely)

2. Blizzard keeps being silent and in 2 weeks only some hardcore nost fans will still come up with some rant on their media pages, after some time nost team releases the code and another server becomes the thing (with or without the support of deamon/viper and co) (very likely)

3. Blizzard announces Classic servers to be released with the next expansion after legion, which is most likely in 2 years from now and gets us nowhere

[Jaykylls]

I'll help!

[Forcerius]

That's why I don't want retail vanilla servers.

IF they would open them (I highly doubt it) there would be so many problems..

Just a few things I'm 100% sure about:

- They would run it with new models because you can use the old ones for the real feeling at anytime
- They would open their glorious shop too (they make so much money of it)

The only real solution is to create seperate accounts for it because otherwise you can use all your mounts and stuff. But this is just unthinkable.
Imagine all those retail babies crying about the OP classes or imagine the flood of ret palas/ferals/we crying for beeing left behind. "Gief lfr for classic pls"
The potential for even more crying and things like "you gave them classic - I want CATACLYSM!!" is something very dangerous.

If tomorrow I could create a Battlenet account and log in, buy WoW Classic for 50$ combined with a monthly payment of 15$ and everything would be like it was back in the days, I'd 100% do it. But this is not the way it will be.

If anything like classic servers are being implented it will take years. It's a high risk and their shareholders are just interested in hard cash and not the eternal gratitude of a million fans.
A collab with the nost team is out of question, imagine the PR "Billion dollar Game-Publisher gets extra lessons by team of hobby devs" (no hate for Nost team, they are incredible but the media are sharks)

So for me there are only three scenarios for the near (~3 months) future

1. Blizzard changes their terms of use and thus nostalrius will be revived (very unlikely)

2. Blizzard keeps being silent and in 2 weeks only some hardcore nost fans will still come up with some rant on their media pages, after some time nost team releases the code and another server becomes the thing (with or without the support of deamon/viper and co) (very likely)

3. Blizzard announces Classic servers to be released with the next expansion after legion, which is most likely in 2 years from now and gets us nowhere

Yeah I agree. Waiting for the devs to pass the torch might be the best option. But its still possible to force Blizzard to reverse legal action if enough of their profits are affected by "protest", regardless of how bad it would make them look. And actually, the more a protest embarrasses Blizzard the more power it has. If that's even worth pursuing. Because even if Blizzard gave up; would the original Nostalrius team simply revive the server? I tried to make a thread but couldn't get a clear answer on that. We all assume they would but "things" aren't the same now.

[Crysthal]

Yeah man I know the devs are very comitted but faceing a lawsuit that can charge them for millions is something you just can't risk. Even if the chances for Blizzard succeding aren't great and the amount of money will probably be less they risk alot.

Even if you know you're right it takes alot of effort, time and money to prove it.

[Winterflaw]

Yeah man I know the devs are very comitted but faceing a lawsuit that can charge them for millions is something you just can't risk. Even if the chances for Blizzard succeding aren't great and the amount of money will probably be less they risk alot.

Even if you know you're right it takes alot of effort, time and money to prove it.

The idea here is that Bliz *chose* to do this, not that they're forced to it. I doubt they could be legally forced to it anyway, as it is their property.

[Winterflaw]

So, I've wanted to reply to this for a few days now, but I've been constantly busy, and it needs some considered writing.

> What we need is a practical demand we all agree on, like re-opening
> Nostalrius and reversing legal action. Then an effective "protest"

This, a thousand times yes. A thousand thousands.

We are in a position not unlike that of an independence movement, where a nation is ruled by another but seeks freedom.

Many nations have over the millenium of human civilization wished for independence. When such movements are fragemented, multiple, with diverging aims - then there is no sufficient single coherent mass, which by its mass allows *focus of protest* - both upon the aim and the means of protesting.

If ten thousand single people each protest in a different way, for a different aim, the occupying power is not much troubled. When ten thousand people act as one, *then* something may be possible.

Right now, there are a lot of individuals, each unhappy, few I think with very clear goals, and of those, the question must then be asked if the goals are viable with the possible means.

We must organize. We must draw in as many people as possible, to a single platform - and that platform must make sense, and be achieveable with the means at our disposal.

> Assuming the Nostalrius team even wants to continue. They could be
> opting out willingly. And we don't want a blizzard vanilla server
> because it will cost money and inevitably suck when they ruin it with
> a bunch of extra nonsense.

The Nost team have not spoken and I suspect they cannot freely speak, due to the legal threat.

It is probably reasonable, given how much time and money they have invested, to think that if they could, they would wish to continue with Nost.

> Petitions WONT WORK (they never do, right?) because that leaves 100%
> of the decision to the company,

This I think absolutely correct and true.

It is not merely that we wish to cause change; we wish to cause SPECIFIC change. If we cause change, but the change to occur is decided by a third party who does not share our aims or wishes, then we should not be at all surprised if the change which occurs is not that for which we wished.

We do not go to such effort to mobilize people only to chance the outcome on Blizzard.

> You get a bunch of people to agree to do
> something LEGAL that will cripple the company or whoever has the
> power to reverse the decision.

The general rule is that if you act in self-defence, all bets are off - if someone else has tried to force you or trick you, then you're free to do the same.

So legal is not *per se* necessary. However, in this case, I must say Bliz have not acted unethically, so I can see no grounds to invoke this clause. I think Bliz are being profoundly stupid and harmful - but freedom includes the freedom to be profoundly stupid. *They have never forced themselves upon us, or tried to deceive us*.

> And usually the threat alone is enough for them to agree.

Mmm, history does not agree the occupying powers usually have a lot to loose, so it takes a good shove to get rid of them.

> For instance, here are some real examples of "protest".

> - Thousands of people order an item or items from Blizzard
> (preferrably something cheap), then agree's to return it. The losses
> the company would get from that are unimaginable, and that's an
> example where the threat alone may cause them to meet our demands.
> But it must be organized. You can't just say "Ok internet, lets go!"
> - Thousands of people call their support line at the same time, then
> just mutes their phone and goes afk. Their support service would
> cease to function while that's happening. They would also fall
> behind, among other significant effects. And its legal.

I have to think this over.

Ghandi argued for passive resistance - you let people know how you feel, you refuse to do what they want when it's wrong; we're not quite in that situation, though. Our problem is Bliz's sheer inertness =-) it's an important point, though. If the other party has not been unethical, you can't invoke self-defence. You cannot actually attempt to *coerce* them - as opposed to *persude* them.

I need to think about what protest action can be taken.