Spec-based elitism on a legacy server

[PriestInOurTime]

First of all, elitism is a word that is thrown around far to much to the point where it has almost lost all meaning. But never mind that. Lets instead look at your examples.

Examples of good advice:

"Bear tank can work THIS way, but if you want to play the best tank spec, that might be warrior."
"Ensure you bring something else to the table as Elemental will usually never top the charts. If you want to do that, you might want to consider a pure DPS class."

This is being very polite. But as far as advice goes, it can also be very misleading. If the player you are talking to is interested in raiding, not pointing out that Feral tanking or Elemental DPS will make it very hard or even impossible to get into one of the better raiding guilds and really hard even to get into less prominent ones is doing him a huge disservice.

Examples of bad advice:

"You will never DPS as Balance, gtfo reroll or quit."

This is being extremely impolite for no good reason. As far as advice goes this is likely much better to hear for someone interested in raiding.


Actual good advice might be:

"If you play a druid, expect to be asked to heal in virtually every raid. At least in guilds other than the friends and family type. If your end goal is to dps in raids, then druid is a very bad choice for vanilla wow, as you might find yourself unable to find a guild willing to take you that match your preferences in other areas. If raid dps is something you wish to be doing, you really should try out warrior, rogue, hunter, mage or warlock and see if you like that. Then you will not face a steep uphill battle because of your class."

That is polite while still laying out the facts as they are. Not being clear on the fact that the median number of main spec balance/feral druids, ret/prot paladins and enhancement/elemental shamans in raids is zero isn't good advice. It is horrible advice. You don't have to be an ass while saying it, but holding back on this information and letting someone level all the way to 60 just to find that they cannot get into the guilds they want to play in is just mean. Telling people that their class is just fine for a role that it clearly isn't well suited for is bad advice. Advice should allow people to make good decisions, that is their purpose. But, as a wise man once said.

[Norjak]

That is polite while still laying out the facts as they are. Not being clear on the fact that the median number of main spec balance/feral druids, ret/prot paladins and enhancement/elemental shamans in raids is zero isn't good advice.

The idea that there should be 0 of anything in the raid is incredibly subjective. If the guild is still progressing, then your argument might have some substance, based on time-tested truths about the viability of certain specs in vanilla WoW...on the other hand if the raid is farming a raid instance, there's usually a place for a "fun" spec or two, especially if they're good players who know the class, and the raid lead knows how to utilize them effectively. The danger lies with those guilds or groups who only know that x spec is "bad" and thus never gives them the opportunity to join the group. Even if the guild is farming MC for the 100th time & some idiot hunter pet causes a wipe that slows the group for longer than having 1 person out of 40 in less-than-optimal dps spec.

[nervous]

"You will never DPS as Balance, gtfo reroll or quit."

Bullshit, you can do decent dmg in any spec, even balance or retry pala. I had a ret in my raid (pvp epic+zinrokh) who used to be 6th on dps table.

Obviously do not expect to be one of the better, because those are Rogues and fury warriors. In other hand i think that Warrior tank is a must, and Pala/druid tanks are only worth for dungeons.

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/BossL ... ssLimit=Pa
http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/BossL ... ssLimit=Dr

Nah. You want to do damage, you play a non hybrid class.

[Blib]

awww shiiie, some people are about to get triggered

[Syphonize]

@PriestInOurTime

I don't quite agree with everything, although you make some reasonable points. I am mostly talking about exchanges such as this.

"What stats do I look for as a Balance Druid?"
"You dont DPS as Balance, gtfo"

In this scenario, the person is not asking if Balance is viable or not. The person just wants to know the best way to improve upon it. Now, if the question was framed in such a way that you were asking "how good is Balance in raids", then you would no doubt be correct in telling them that you would be asked to heal and such.

Also please don't make the claim that it's impossible to raid with "inferior" specs. The guild I was in easily cleared all content Nostalrius had to offer and plenty of times we respec'd to janky specs for fun. Farming content with optimal specs gets boring fast and it's fun to try new things. I have no doubt people who haven't played Vanilla WoW since 2006 would have fun doing the same.

That being said, my original post is really falling on deaf ears as I already see this thread devolving into the usual "hybrids suck" versus "reck bomb" nonsense. I hope the message reaches some people.

[Xaverius]

not pointing out that Feral tanking or Elemental DPS will make it very hard or even impossible to get into one of the better raiding guilds and really hard even to get into less prominent ones is doing him a huge disservice.

Having never looked at the vanilla set stats and played enha on TBC, I actually thought vanilla shamans *were* elementals.

[PriestInOurTime]

not pointing out that Feral tanking or Elemental DPS will make it very hard or even impossible to get into one of the better raiding guilds and really hard even to get into less prominent ones is doing him a huge disservice.

Having never looked at the vanilla set stats and played enha on TBC, I actually thought vanilla shamans *were* elementals.

You are not alone in not knowing what spec is viable. Far from it. This is the reason that threads and discussions on the topic get filled with comments strongly suggesting to avoid these less wanted specs.

Its not very funny, letting a player know that even after getting to 60 and farming decent gear he will not get a trial spot in the guild. And likely not in comparable guilds either. Recommending a reroll. After that happends a few times you start to develop a certain disdain for players saying that it isn't an issue.

It kinda sucks to often be labeled as the bad guy for it. But hey. At least I didn't make someone throw away 15 days /played on a pipe dream.

While it isn't impossible to get a raiding spot in a good guild as a retri paladin (my definition of a good guild is rather strict. 8/8 BWL week 2 is probably the low end) it is likely at least about 20 times as easy as a warlock, and even more lopsided the better the guild you want to join.

[Drain]

So long as people know what they are getting themselves into and don't say "why didn't anyone warn me Balance sucks?!"

[smilkovpetko]

First of all,the "Legacy Server" will have special "Task" and "Obligation" to have all "Bugs" fixed.

Just to make some reminding comparisons between "Paladins" in "Original" and "Piracy" Versions.

Holy Resistance in "original" version didn't exist ,Damage Abilities didn't "resist" like they do in "piracy" .
Buffs from "Auras" in "original" was working properly , Items and procs was properly scale with our "Abilities" and "Auras" compare to "piracy" where they don't work at all.

Next step is "Warrior" "Rage" , "Mage" "Ignite" and so on, like some other classes that have "High" efficient and procs/working too much in "piracy" compare to "original", there will be huge nerf to their "Viability" compare to "Hybrids" if these kind of complicated beneficial bugs get fixed.

There was some sort of Balance in "Original" version , sadly not many got this experience so far and will never due to "Piracy" fallibility of working "Abilities" .

Thanks to fallibility of working "Abilities" had contributed so much in this sort of "Elitism of min/max" we see today and honestly that will all get solved with "Legacy server", if they intend to create it based on "Original Vanilla" as we "Nostalgia Players" know it.

I am aware that this post will be good catch for the trolls with their "Anti Hybrid" ego but that is how it is.

P.s my English is bad so i don't need someone to tell me how bad my English is.

And last thing , there was many stuffs that Theoloras didn't knew himself regarding Paladin Abilities, i had never bothered before investigating the route of the bugs until i decide to start playing "piracy servers" because they were working well in "original".

But once i decide to investigate the "Theory" and the "Abilities" together with the present falsehood of "Bugs", things did enlighten me how bad they work and why many people got this huge fallibility regarding "Hybrids",i also present so many undiscovered stuffs to Theoloras of how our "Abilities" working and how they are divided into specific groups.

[Tebeda]

Well, if they do make official legacy servers (assuming it's pay to play) you're going to get a lot of " I pay for this so don't tell me how to play"