TBC vs. Vanilla

[Benny&thejetz]

As I've said before, Vanilla is the only WoW for me.

A few reasons why I don't like TBC:

- Flying Mounts (one of the worst things ever added to WoW)
- Resilience (I liked being able to use PvE gear in PvP)
- Arena (where Vanilla is world PvP and a lot of large scale BG's, I can't get excited about arenas. And yet TBC forces you into them to get PvP gear)

Couldn't agree more. In my mind, PVP died the moment TBC launched.

Whether people realize it or not, arenas are TBC's garrisons in terms of PVP. BG's became irrelevant. World PVP became irrelevant. Instead you had these small instanced skirmishes that amounted to pillar humping & LoS battles. No thanks. I would take vanilla's PVP ranking system & 40 man AV's any day over that garbage.

Resilience was one of the worst additions in the game. There is absolutely no reason PVE gear should not be able to be used & be effective in PVP. For many players, they did raids solely for PVP gear. There is nothing wrong with that & if anything it created a better community as a result. You had players who normally wanted nothing to do with raids, doing raids & meeting people they would not have otherwise.

Flying mounts. Killed world pvp overnight. Shrunk the world. Trivialized content. Terrible addition.

[Adgey]

There is no skill in MMO pvp, sorry. It's completely dependent on your gear and always has been lol. If you want esports go play dota or some shit.

I can't understand this poosition at all. Skill counts for a lot in pvp, a more skillful player can overcome a massive gear disadvantage by outplaying an opponent. This is usually because they have a deeper understanding of abilities and cooldowns and how they interact with each other within the game. Therefore making quicker and better decisions. If you don't want to call it skill fine, but this kind of thing counts for a lot.

[Zanbaka]

Couldn't agree more. In my mind, PVP died the moment TBC launched.

Whether people realize it or not, arenas are TBC's garrisons in terms of PVP. BG's became irrelevant. World PVP became irrelevant. Instead you had these small instanced skirmishes that amounted to pillar humping & LoS battles. No thanks. I would take vanilla's PVP ranking system & 40 man AV's any day over that garbage.

Resilience was one of the worst additions in the game. There is absolutely no reason PVE gear should not be able to be used & be effective in PVP. For many players, they did raids solely for PVP gear. There is nothing wrong with that & if anything it created a better community as a result. You had players who normally wanted nothing to do with raids, doing raids & meeting people they would not have otherwise.

Flying mounts. Killed world pvp overnight. Shrunk the world. Trivialized content. Terrible addition.

Huh? Have you even played TBC?

For starters, not all pvp items were earned through arena points. Like for example, you had to farm honor to the bracers, belt and necklace and some other pieces as well. From season 3 onwards, you could also farm honor to collect the older arena items.

Second, I recall quite a lot of people, especially rogues, using pve gear.

Third, why are so many people bitching about resillience? Is it really that much fun to kill someone in less than 3 sec?

Fourth, you have to realize that your memories of retail TBC are not applicable to private server TBC, as the community is a lot different, so obviously the experience will be different as well. I think world pvp would be a lot more alive on private servers, especially when everyone is still leveling.

[Fatherben]

Arena did not kill pvp, it turned into one of the best e-sports ever created. The only reason it didn't become as big as LoL or SC was because arena is attached to an MMO with a subscription fee.

I enjoy vanilla AV a lot and it's one of the many reasons I wanted to play on Nost, but there is no way in a thousand years that I'll pretend any form of vanilla pvp takes more skill than 3v3 arena.

Vanilla pvp is fun, but it's just rolling a "flavor of the year" class like a mage, grinding honor, and ganking out of boredom.

[Sharax]

As I've said before, Vanilla is the only WoW for me.

A few reasons why I don't like TBC:

- Flying Mounts (one of the worst things ever added to WoW)
- Resilience (I liked being able to use PvE gear in PvP)
- Arena (where Vanilla is world PvP and a lot of large scale BG's, I can't get excited about arenas. And yet TBC forces you into them to get PvP gear)

You do know PvE gear is still a thing in TBC arena's right? Every top player mixes a good amount of PvE gear with PvP gear in TBC because you dont need 500 resil.... Also vanilla had more world pvp but even in retail you can still find people world pvping today in Outlands because some of those pvp hubs in each zone actually encouraged and caused lots of world pvp at all times of the day. Also yeah Wpvp and oldschool AV is fun but come on bro the skill gap is a fucking joke comparing arena's to Wpvp. Casual pvp may be fun to most people but people who actually want to outplay people with skill / tactics/ and coordination play arena's.

http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/13/bliz ... a-mistake/
From Pardo just after he left his position in WoW.

Reading the full article, it's a shame that they broke some of their hardcore ideals to cater to convenience.

That segues in nicely to this question: Cross-server gameplay. It's convenient, but do you think that it runs the risk of destroying server communities?

To be completely honest, [the Looking For Group tool] is a feature I wanted in the game when we launched the game. I was really unhappy when we didn't have it when we first shipped, so it's been 5 years coming. Maybe it wasn't the number one thing I wanted in, but it's definitely one of the top 5 things that I wanted in the game. It's actually our third try at a proper LFG tool, and this one gets it right. With the Meeting Stones, we didn't put enough attention into it, we just tried to jam it in, and people didn't use it. The second tool, it ended up being compromised feature - we tried to cater to too many different audiences.

As for the community question, I used to ... I think that 5 years ago, I would have answered this question differently than I would today. I was all about preserving the small realm communities, but already... Well, look at Battlegrounds, it's a good case in point, because it doesn't diminish social relationships that matter on a realm. Sure, everyone can bring up "that one guy" that they know, the ninja looter who stole his stuff. But I think your real community isn't the whole realm, but it's your guild and the friends you group with, and the cross-server LFG won't undermine that at all. The Dungeon Finder - by the way, I think we just renamed it the Dungeon Finder last night - We designed it in such a way that it serves the need for guilds and groups and friends. You don't have to always [join a Pick-Up Group]. If there are four guildies in a group who just need a fifth, they can do that. You can also use it if even you have a full five-person party.

Or, you can do it if you're on your own and just want to run something, so I don't think it diminishes it at all

[Kelorek]

People have differences in opinions on what they want to play, be it Vanilla, WotlK or TBC. That's fair and Id like to see at least Vanilla + one other (either WoTlk or TBC) offered one day. As far as I am concerned, Vanilla and the next two expansions were great.

However, lots of the claims in this thread about TBC are not correct. PvP thrived in TBC, if anything it was more calculated and had more purpose than Vanilla. TBC also brought with it Arena and a far better honour system which sponsored battlegrounds that were way more enjoyable.

The only thing that impacted PvP in TBC was there was usually a faction imbalance on most servers. This didn't prevent people who enjoy PvP from making a name for themselves. On Altar of Storms it was something ridiculous like 5 horde for every 1 alliance and there were still big name alliance pvpers that were terrors.

[Dr. Doom]

People have differences in opinions on what they want to play, be it Vanilla, WotlK or TBC. That's fair and Id like to see at least Vanilla + one other (either WoTlk or TBC) offered one day. As far as I am concerned, Vanilla and the next two expansions were great.

However, lots of the claims in this thread about TBC are not correct. PvP thrived in TBC, if anything it was more calculated and had more purpose than Vanilla. TBC also brought with it Arena and a far better honour system which sponsored battlegrounds that were way more enjoyable.

The only thing that impacted PvP in TBC was there was usually a faction imbalance on most servers. This didn't prevent people who enjoy PvP from making a name for themselves. On Altar of Storms it was something ridiculous like 5 horde for every 1 alliance and there were still big name alliance pvpers that were terrors.

Why do people push in wotlk too?
Vanilla/TBC had some differences but they were the same philosophy and design at the core. Wotlk was nothing like this, and I frankly find it borderline insulting to mesh in the expac of 4 difficulties, LFD, raids being cleared in 48hours after release, with Vanilla/TBC.

[Hernia]

There is no skill in MMO pvp, sorry. It's completely dependent on your gear and always has been lol. If you want esports go play dota or some shit.

I can't understand this poosition at all. Skill counts for a lot in pvp, a more skillful player can overcome a massive gear disadvantage by outplaying an opponent. This is usually because they have a deeper understanding of abilities and cooldowns and how they interact with each other within the game. Therefore making quicker and better decisions. If you don't want to call it skill fine, but this kind of thing counts for a lot.

Skill mattering in MMO pvp is the exception. You are playing a game with massive amounts of RNG in its combat system not to mention gear. Having a brain gives you an edge but not much.

[Drain]

It's universally agreed that BC was the best, fixing most issues over Classic, and taking mostly steps forward with the game. The few drawbacks of it were worth the 10x as many improvements. I like the removal of the terrible honor/rank system. I like the proper support of all talent trees. The itemization and ability mechanics are leagues better. I played on Nost Classic mainly while waiting for BC. That'll be the same reason I play legacy Classic, unless they drop BC at the same time.

But people have their own opinions, and will hopefully one day be able to pick the patch THEY(not Blizzard) want to play. I also prefer BC, but if you prefer Classic or even Wotlk, there's no reason someone should hate you for it. You should want all of these hosted, not 1. All of these are now Classic WoW eras, and all are better than the garbage that has come after Wotlk. Also, one day, you might want to play on the other patches, which you'd have screwed yourself out of by getting a cherry picked one. I suspect many players will play through them in order, transferring up after they do all the content, if allowed. This is the way the game should have been played.

[Keldan]

The few drawbacks of it were worth the 10x as many improvements.

Well that part is really the heart of the debate. For some people (including me), elite zones, travels, ground open world pvp (no flying mounts) and things like long AV battles are more important than the new races, better balanced trees, arenas and the freedom of flying. These are only some of the points that make TBC and Vanilla very different games in the end.