Nostalrius Begins - Quality wow vanilla realm (1.12)

I thought it was pretty clear they were a form of progression, did people mistake the level 40 milestone abilities as customization? It seems clear (to me) from the original dev intentions that hybrid specs were never meant to have overwhelming synergy and were always nerfed because of that.

Vaulken wrote:I thought it was pretty clear they were a form of progression, did people mistake the level 40 milestone abilities as customization? It seems clear (to me) from the original dev intentions that hybrid specs were never meant to have overwhelming synergy and were always nerfed because of that.

It's what is referred to as emergent gameplay. It hardly matters the intention of the result is different. Talents did provide customization and while I did not play in Vanilla, the times I did play I was given a handful of options per talent tree usually.

I mean, simulcraft came alone and told me eventually what simulates the best I suppose. Still fun to customize and be a bit more unique imo.

Yea, you really can have a vast range of customization. It just might take some expert modifications to play style and stat priority on gear but you can do so many things with vanilla talents if you take the time

I did a rogue that could sap+incapacitate +blind vanish and repeat(maybe was even more abilities involved). It gave about a 50 second "stun" or if was more. All abilities had to hit thou. Was in BC. It was seriously viable in 1v1

I'm starting to think the unintended customization was another tier of progression (not that it undermines the customization) because every time you decide to respec you come with more knowledge to the table:

- the first play through you put the points where ever you're not sure of the impact/importance of abilities
- 2nd serious respec you've grasped an understanding of what abilities to what
- 3rd serious respec you know the power of your abilities and you're optimizing the spec
- 4th serious respec you know the optimal spec for one of three specs you now explore the other two
- 5th serious respec understanding the 3 specs you test the synergy of the 3 creating a hybrid
- 6th serious respec (mechanics allowing) you optimize a competitive hybrid build

This takes a LOT of min maxing, understanding your gear and the strengths and weakness you're exploiting and covering. I can reconcile that although there is a lot of progression in here, there is an element of customization and I think the draw to that is the masses of knowledge and experimentation required to fully exploit it.

What's more is probably the overlap, something Blizzard later removed to have them separate from each other as systems. I imagine the engagement is exponential when systems overlap rather than linear when they're separate.

They were made for customization, but at the same time, Blizzard intended for you to use certain trees, either for leveling, PvP, or raiding. So your choices are more limited than what the trees would originally promise. Some were just put in the game to fill a slot and they had no intention of players actually using it...(MOONKIN).

In BC is when they decided to actually support all the trees, making them all viable to use. At this point you could level effectively with every tree in the game, which is totally untrue for Classic, and raid with all of them. So at this point, you want to be an Orc Mage, you can actually get gear for it, where as in Classic, all your tier sets were for healing. I do view BC as the best of WoW, and my main reason for playing here was for the future transfer to BC with my characters... Leveling and raiding in BC is so much more free than the shackles of the Classic talent trees.

It feels so great to put another talent point every single time you level up

Crysthal wrote:It feels so great to put another talent point every single time you level up

This plays very much into the progression fantasy, the same way gear does but talents points give you a lot more powerful stats, getting +1% critical strike at level 10 is like having 1 of the stats from a high level item. On your first play through there is also an element of commitment, choosing which tree to go down, which stats to prioritize, at what level you plan to respec at etc.

Vaulken wrote:

Crysthal wrote:It feels so great to put another talent point every single time you level up

This plays very much into the progression fantasy, the same way gear does but talents points give you a lot more powerful stats, getting +1% critical strike at level 10 is like having 1 of the stats from a high level item. On your first play through there is also an element of commitment, choosing which tree to go down, which stats to prioritize, at what level you plan to respec at etc.

Yeah even if I level a familiar class and already know the path I'll choose I am happy about every single time I put that talent point

Drain wrote:They were made for customization, but at the same time, Blizzard intended for you to use certain trees, either for leveling, PvP, or raiding. So your choices are more limited than what the trees would originally promise. Some were just put in the game to fill a slot and they had no intention of players actually using it...(MOONKIN).

In BC is when they decided to actually support all the trees, making them all viable to use. At this point you could level effectively with every tree in the game, which is totally untrue for Classic, and raid with all of them. So at this point, you want to be an Orc Mage, you can actually get gear for it, where as in Classic, all your tier sets were for healing. I do view BC as the best of WoW, and my main reason for playing here was for the future transfer to BC with my characters... Leveling and raiding in BC is so much more free than the shackles of the Classic talent trees.

I don't find either of the philosophies wrong, just different. It's a different paradigm in design when you expect to have very real debilitating weaknesses along side very brutal strengths, compared to other paradigms that relax on the extremes.

Crysthal wrote:Yeah even if I level a familiar class and already know the path I'll choose I am happy about every single time I put that talent point

I think it was later undermined how satisfying each point felt, probably because so many extra points were added every expansion it would end up diluting the impact they had. But in Classic it feels like a big deal and reaching those level 40 talents has even bigger impact.

Feels good man : )